The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

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mlinssen
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by mlinssen »

Sinouhe wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:29 pm
lsayre wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:22 am Within the Parables of Enoch this excerpt strikes me as rather Gnostic:

CHAPTER XLII.
1. Wisdom found no place where she might dwell;
Then a dwelling-place was assigned her in the heavens.

2 Wisdom went forth to make her dwelling among the children of men,
And found no dwelling-place:

Wisdom returned to her place,
And took her seat among the angels.

3 And unrighteousness went forth from her chambers:
Whom she sought not she found,
And dwelt with them, p. 62

As rain in a desert
And dew on a thirsty land.
Proverbs 8
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;(Y)
25 before the mountains were settled in place,(Z)
before the hills, I was given birth,(AA)
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.(AB)
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,(AC)
when he marked out the horizon(AD) on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above(AE)
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,(AF)
29 when he gave the sea its boundary(AG)
so the waters would not overstep his command,(AH)
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.(AI)
30 Then I was constantly[e] at his side.(AJ)
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.(AK)
32 “Now then, my children, listen(AL) to me;
blessed are(AM) those who keep my ways.(AN)
33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not disregard it.
34 Blessed are those who listen(AO) to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
35 For those who find me(AP) find life(AQ)
and receive favor from the Lord.(AR)
36 But those who fail to find me harm themselves;(AS)
all who hate me love death.”(AT)

1 Corinthians 1:24
24 but to those whom God has called,(A) both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God(B) and the wisdom of God.(C

1 Corinthians 2:7
7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery(A) that has been hidden(B) and that God destined for our glory before time began
38 counts of σοφία in all of the NT, 8 of which in the gospels. Add 'wise' and you get to 76; 1 Cor 1 & 2 have 13 and 7 of them
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

andrewcriddle wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:30 am The Herodian date may be right.

I am still troubled by the absence of this material from Qumran.
There are two possible explanations for this material being both pre-Christian and absent from the material preserved at Qumran.
a/ Pure accident (IMO unlikely)
b/ Disapproval of this material at Qumran. My problem here is that although the Parables have major differences from the rest of the \Enoch material they have significant links to other Qumran texts such as Songs of the Sabbath Sacrifice so I think they would be acceptable at Qumran.

I would have no real problem with a date like that suggested by Suter of c 40 CE. Although written before the end of the Qumran community it might be too recent to have been copied at Qumran. But I have reservations about a date in the time of Herod the Great.

Andrew Criddle
Interestingly the Herodian date appears to be deduced from the internal evidence of the text a la Sherwin-White's method of dating Christian texts. (Looking for external witnesses is what I was doing re Paul and the gospels. You're pinching my methods now!)

(What would an Andrew Criddle post be like without a Neil Godfrey rejoinder! ;-) )
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:31 pm
andrewcriddle wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:30 am The Herodian date may be right.

I am still troubled by the absence of this material from Qumran.
There are two possible explanations for this material being both pre-Christian and absent from the material preserved at Qumran.
a/ Pure accident (IMO unlikely)
b/ Disapproval of this material at Qumran. My problem here is that although the Parables have major differences from the rest of the \Enoch material they have significant links to other Qumran texts such as Songs of the Sabbath Sacrifice so I think they would be acceptable at Qumran.

I would have no real problem with a date like that suggested by Suter of c 40 CE. Although written before the end of the Qumran community it might be too recent to have been copied at Qumran. But I have reservations about a date in the time of Herod the Great.

Andrew Criddle
Interestingly the Herodian date appears to be deduced from the internal evidence of the text a la Sherwin-White's method of dating Christian texts. (Looking for external witnesses is what I was doing re Paul and the gospels. You're pinching my methods now!)

(What would an Andrew Criddle post be like without a Neil Godfrey rejoinder! ;-) )
Neil, i read your posts about the book "The Messiah: A Comparative Study of the Enochic Son of Man and the Pauline Kyrios" : https://vridar.org/2013/08/05/christ-be ... -of-enoch/ but from what i see on your blog, unfortunately you didn't finished this serie of articles about this book. Is it worth a read ? (the book).
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

Sinouhe wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:58 pm
Neil, i read your posts about the book "The Messiah: A Comparative Study of the Enochic Son of Man and the Pauline Kyrios" : https://vridar.org/2013/08/05/christ-be ... -of-enoch/ but from what i see on your blog, unfortunately you didn't finished this serie of articles about this book. Is it worth a read ? (the book).
Did I indicate in those posts that I would continue with more on the book? Maybe I did - I don't recall. If so, I'll try to see where I left off and pick up again.

I just had another look at my copy and see I have pencil notes and sticker notes all through it, so it must have been "worth reading" for me at any rate.
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:32 am
Sinouhe wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:58 pm
Neil, i read your posts about the book "The Messiah: A Comparative Study of the Enochic Son of Man and the Pauline Kyrios" : https://vridar.org/2013/08/05/christ-be ... -of-enoch/ but from what i see on your blog, unfortunately you didn't finished this serie of articles about this book. Is it worth a read ? (the book).
Did I indicate in those posts that I would continue with more on the book? Maybe I did - I don't recall.
Yes you wrote that in the last article :
Later in this series we will see the way Enoch is associated with Wisdom and how this reinforces this interpretation.

The next post will illustrate the way 1 Enoch defines the Christ/Messiah as a preexistent heavenly being, even “Wisdom” personified.

The relevance of this to Christianity? Well, Paul’s/Christianity’s Christ is a man who was ascended to heaven. He writes of this Christ as having existed from eternity and as being personified by “Wisdom”. But this is in ongoing series and the Christ/Messiah of 1 Enoch will be compared with Christianity’s (Paul’s) Christ being will be drawn out as we progress.
If so, I'll try to see where I left off and pick up again.


Thanks :thumbup:
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

Sinouhe wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:55 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:32 am
Sinouhe wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:58 pm
Neil, i read your posts about the book "The Messiah: A Comparative Study of the Enochic Son of Man and the Pauline Kyrios" : https://vridar.org/2013/08/05/christ-be ... -of-enoch/ but from what i see on your blog, unfortunately you didn't finished this serie of articles about this book. Is it worth a read ? (the book).
Did I indicate in those posts that I would continue with more on the book? Maybe I did - I don't recall.
Yes you wrote that in the last article :
Later in this series we will see the way Enoch is associated with Wisdom and how this reinforces this interpretation.

The next post will illustrate the way 1 Enoch defines the Christ/Messiah as a preexistent heavenly being, even “Wisdom” personified.

The relevance of this to Christianity? Well, Paul’s/Christianity’s Christ is a man who was ascended to heaven. He writes of this Christ as having existed from eternity and as being personified by “Wisdom”. But this is in ongoing series and the Christ/Messiah of 1 Enoch will be compared with Christianity’s (Paul’s) Christ being will be drawn out as we progress.
If so, I'll try to see where I left off and pick up again.


Thanks :thumbup:
(sigh -- insert whatever the "sigh" smiley is) -- I have already committed in my own mind to do two series on the Bedenbender books (Good News on the Abyss and Failed Messiah) and another on Witulski's several books on Revelation.... of making many posts there is no end, and much translating and reading is a weariness of the flesh (but a stimulus to the mind!)
andrewcriddle
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by andrewcriddle »

neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:31 pm
andrewcriddle wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:30 am The Herodian date may be right.

I am still troubled by the absence of this material from Qumran.
There are two possible explanations for this material being both pre-Christian and absent from the material preserved at Qumran.
a/ Pure accident (IMO unlikely)
b/ Disapproval of this material at Qumran. My problem here is that although the Parables have major differences from the rest of the \Enoch material they have significant links to other Qumran texts such as Songs of the Sabbath Sacrifice so I think they would be acceptable at Qumran.

I would have no real problem with a date like that suggested by Suter of c 40 CE. Although written before the end of the Qumran community it might be too recent to have been copied at Qumran. But I have reservations about a date in the time of Herod the Great.

Andrew Criddle
Interestingly the Herodian date appears to be deduced from the internal evidence of the text a la Sherwin-White's method of dating Christian texts. (Looking for external witnesses is what I was doing re Paul and the gospels. You're pinching my methods now!)

(What would an Andrew Criddle post be like without a Neil Godfrey rejoinder! ;-) )
You make a good point but I still feel that a/ the apparent absence of the parables from Qumran and b/ the presence at Qumran of numerous fragments of all the other portions of what became Ethiopic Enoch is much more significant than a/ on its own would be.

Andrew Criddle
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:24 ambut I still feel that a/ the apparent absence of the parables from Qumran and b/ the presence at Qumran of numerous fragments of all the other portions of what became Ethiopic Enoch is much more significant than a/ on its own would be.
It is those feelings that were at the heart of discussions on dating the Parables at the Enoch Seminar referenced above. The significance proffered is a split between Enochian Judaism and that represented at Qumran.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

Sinouhe wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:55 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:32 am
Sinouhe wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:58 pm
Neil, i read your posts about the book "The Messiah: A Comparative Study of the Enochic Son of Man and the Pauline Kyrios" : https://vridar.org/2013/08/05/christ-be ... -of-enoch/ but from what i see on your blog, unfortunately you didn't finished this serie of articles about this book. Is it worth a read ? (the book).
Did I indicate in those posts that I would continue with more on the book? Maybe I did - I don't recall.
Yes you wrote that in the last article :
Later in this series we will see the way Enoch is associated with Wisdom and how this reinforces this interpretation.

The next post will illustrate the way 1 Enoch defines the Christ/Messiah as a preexistent heavenly being, even “Wisdom” personified.

The relevance of this to Christianity? Well, Paul’s/Christianity’s Christ is a man who was ascended to heaven. He writes of this Christ as having existed from eternity and as being personified by “Wisdom”. But this is in ongoing series and the Christ/Messiah of 1 Enoch will be compared with Christianity’s (Paul’s) Christ being will be drawn out as we progress.
If so, I'll try to see where I left off and pick up again.


Thanks :thumbup:
Here you go.... https://vridar.org/2022/04/12/christ-be ... of-wisdom/
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:31 pm
Sinouhe wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:55 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:32 am
Sinouhe wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:58 pm
Neil, i read your posts about the book "The Messiah: A Comparative Study of the Enochic Son of Man and the Pauline Kyrios" : https://vridar.org/2013/08/05/christ-be ... -of-enoch/ but from what i see on your blog, unfortunately you didn't finished this serie of articles about this book. Is it worth a read ? (the book).
Did I indicate in those posts that I would continue with more on the book? Maybe I did - I don't recall.
Yes you wrote that in the last article :
Later in this series we will see the way Enoch is associated with Wisdom and how this reinforces this interpretation.

The next post will illustrate the way 1 Enoch defines the Christ/Messiah as a preexistent heavenly being, even “Wisdom” personified.

The relevance of this to Christianity? Well, Paul’s/Christianity’s Christ is a man who was ascended to heaven. He writes of this Christ as having existed from eternity and as being personified by “Wisdom”. But this is in ongoing series and the Christ/Messiah of 1 Enoch will be compared with Christianity’s (Paul’s) Christ being will be drawn out as we progress.
If so, I'll try to see where I left off and pick up again.


Thanks :thumbup:
Here you go.... https://vridar.org/2022/04/12/christ-be ... of-wisdom/
Much appreciated. It is an exciting subject for me.
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