Historicity's Problems And Theudas As Our Only Candidate; 4 Genuine Historical Identifications

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
ABuddhist
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Re: Historicity's Problems And Theudas As Our Only Candidate; 4 Genuine Historical Identifications

Post by ABuddhist »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:50 am
maryhelena wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:39 am It is not an assumption to maintain that there is a historical reflection in the gospel Jesus story. Logic requires that it is there - all the more so as its a very Jewish story.
Did not Jews also write fiction without any historical basis for the narratives?
I know about at least 2: the "Book of Judith" and the "Book of Tobit", which are in Catholics' bibles but not in Jews' scriptures.
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maryhelena
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Re: Historicity's Problems And Theudas As Our Only Candidate; 4 Genuine Historical Identifications

Post by maryhelena »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:50 am
maryhelena wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:39 am It is not an assumption to maintain that there is a historical reflection in the gospel Jesus story. Logic requires that it is there - all the more so as its a very Jewish story.
Did not Jews also write fiction without any historical basis for the narratives?
Yep, they wrote the Adam and Eve story...... so?

Neil.... we have a gospel Jesus myth story. A story that has influenced western culture. It is that story that is the focus not another story. It is that story that has been called "the greatest story ever told". It is a story that people have died for. It is a story people have killed for. It's a story that continues to hold millions in its grasp.

Yes, people believe nonsense, they believe in imaginary friends. But that, surely, is the reason to attempt to ground Christian origins on a historical basis. Delusion can't be overcome by offering an otherworldly outer space story.

Exchanging a historical gospel Jesus for a cosmic Jesus is to shortchange oneself. We let go of reality at our peril. Jewish thought may indeed have reached for the stars, reached for philosophical insights and development...... but not at the expense of surrendering their firm standing on the ground under their feet. We would be doing the gospel writers a disservice to assume they did.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Historicity's Problems And Theudas As Our Only Candidate; 4 Genuine Historical Identifications

Post by neilgodfrey »

maryhelena wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:38 pm
Yes, people believe nonsense, they believe in imaginary friends. But that, surely, is the reason to attempt to ground Christian origins on a historical basis. Delusion can't be overcome by offering an otherworldly outer space story.
Have not people also died and killed for false beliefs? for fantasies? for ideas that have no basis in reality?
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maryhelena
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Re: Historicity's Problems And Theudas As Our Only Candidate; 4 Genuine Historical Identifications

Post by maryhelena »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:45 pm
maryhelena wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:38 pm
Yes, people believe nonsense, they believe in imaginary friends. But that, surely, is the reason to attempt to ground Christian origins on a historical basis. Delusion can't be overcome by offering an otherworldly outer space story.
Have not people also died and killed for false beliefs? for fantasies? for ideas that have no basis in reality?
Indeed they have. Therefore...... if we care about the danger that has arisen due to interpretations of the gospel Jesus story.... we will seek a historical basis for the origin of that story. A historical basis that would, as it were, move the interpretative dial away from imaginary friends and towards flesh and blood.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Historicity's Problems And Theudas As Our Only Candidate; 4 Genuine Historical Identifications

Post by neilgodfrey »

maryhelena wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:03 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:45 pm
maryhelena wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:38 pm
Yes, people believe nonsense, they believe in imaginary friends. But that, surely, is the reason to attempt to ground Christian origins on a historical basis. Delusion can't be overcome by offering an otherworldly outer space story.
Have not people also died and killed for false beliefs? for fantasies? for ideas that have no basis in reality?
Indeed they have. Therefore...... if we care about the danger that has arisen due to interpretations of the gospel Jesus story.... we will seek a historical basis for the origin of that story. A historical basis that would, as it were, move the interpretative dial away from imaginary friends and towards flesh and blood.
Didn't you say the gospel story has its power because it has a historical basis? Or did I misunderstand you?

If people die because it has a historical basis -- and that historical basis is what gives the story its power for people to die for -- then will not people still die for it, just as much as they die for fantasies?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Historicity's Problems And Theudas As Our Only Candidate; 4 Genuine Historical Identifications

Post by neilgodfrey »

The idea of Christians dying for the gospel is not because the gospel is based in history, but because they believe Jesus was raised from the dead and they will be raised, too, if they maintain their faith, even to death. I don't think any notion of historical truth to the story makes any difference.
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Re: Historicity's Problems And Theudas As Our Only Candidate; 4 Genuine Historical Identifications

Post by maryhelena »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:10 pm
maryhelena wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:03 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:45 pm
maryhelena wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:38 pm
Yes, people believe nonsense, they believe in imaginary friends. But that, surely, is the reason to attempt to ground Christian origins on a historical basis. Delusion can't be overcome by offering an otherworldly outer space story.
Have not people also died and killed for false beliefs? for fantasies? for ideas that have no basis in reality?
Indeed they have. Therefore...... if we care about the danger that has arisen due to interpretations of the gospel Jesus story.... we will seek a historical basis for the origin of that story. A historical basis that would, as it were, move the interpretative dial away from imaginary friends and towards flesh and blood.
Didn't you say the gospel story has its power because it has a historical basis? Or did I misunderstand you?
And the quote of where I said any such thing ?

If people die because it has a historical basis -- and that historical basis is what gives the story its power for people to die for -- then will not people still die for it, just as much as they die for fantasies?
Quote please of where I inferred that 'people die because it (the gospel Jesus myth) has a historical basis ?

People have died due to their interpretation of the gospel story - an interpretation of the gospel Jesus myth that the gospel story is history. They died for their belief in the historicity of the gospel Jesus myth.
Last edited by maryhelena on Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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maryhelena
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Re: Historicity's Problems And Theudas As Our Only Candidate; 4 Genuine Historical Identifications

Post by maryhelena »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:12 pm The idea of Christians dying for the gospel is not because the gospel is based in history, but because they believe Jesus was raised from the dead and they will be raised, too, if they maintain their faith, even to death. I don't think any notion of historical truth to the story makes any difference.
Indeed - people died for their belief in the historicity of the story.

Whether people would be prepared to die for the story knowing that the story is not history, that it is an allegory - well now - what have they to gain? Gone would be their notion of joining a resurrected gospel Jesus in heaven...

One is not going to get people to focus on terra-firm by offering them Jesus in outer space.......
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Historicity's Problems And Theudas As Our Only Candidate; 4 Genuine Historical Identifications

Post by neilgodfrey »

maryhelena wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:16 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:10 pm
maryhelena wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:03 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:45 pm
maryhelena wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:38 pm
Yes, people believe nonsense, they believe in imaginary friends. But that, surely, is the reason to attempt to ground Christian origins on a historical basis. Delusion can't be overcome by offering an otherworldly outer space story.
Have not people also died and killed for false beliefs? for fantasies? for ideas that have no basis in reality?
Indeed they have. Therefore...... if we care about the danger that has arisen due to interpretations of the gospel Jesus story.... we will seek a historical basis for the origin of that story. A historical basis that would, as it were, move the interpretative dial away from imaginary friends and towards flesh and blood.
Didn't you say the gospel story has its power because it has a historical basis? Or did I misunderstand you?
And the quote of where I said any such thing ?

If people die because it has a historical basis -- and that historical basis is what gives the story its power for people to die for -- then will not people still die for it, just as much as they die for fantasies?
Quote please of where I inferred that 'people die because it (the gospel Jesus myth) has a historical basis ?

People have died due to their interpretation of the gospel story - an interpretation of the gospel Jesus myth that the gospel story is history. They died for their belief in the historicity of the gospel Jesus myth.
I really don't want to go back over earlier comments but I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. I thought you were claiming that the gospel story had power because it was grounded in history, that a myth would have no such power.

By the way, I don't know anyone who has ever argued that Christians died for something they knew to be a myth. I think you are misunderstanding my position now.
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maryhelena
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Re: Historicity's Problems And Theudas As Our Only Candidate; 4 Genuine Historical Identifications

Post by maryhelena »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:11 pm
maryhelena wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:16 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:10 pm
maryhelena wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:03 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:45 pm

Have not people also died and killed for false beliefs? for fantasies? for ideas that have no basis in reality?
Indeed they have. Therefore...... if we care about the danger that has arisen due to interpretations of the gospel Jesus story.... we will seek a historical basis for the origin of that story. A historical basis that would, as it were, move the interpretative dial away from imaginary friends and towards flesh and blood.
Didn't you say the gospel story has its power because it has a historical basis? Or did I misunderstand you?
And the quote of where I said any such thing ?

If people die because it has a historical basis -- and that historical basis is what gives the story its power for people to die for -- then will not people still die for it, just as much as they die for fantasies?
Quote please of where I inferred that 'people die because it (the gospel Jesus myth) has a historical basis ?

People have died due to their interpretation of the gospel story - an interpretation of the gospel Jesus myth that the gospel story is history. They died for their belief in the historicity of the gospel Jesus myth.
I really don't want to go back over earlier comments but I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. I thought you were claiming that the gospel story had power because it was grounded in history, that a myth would have no such power.

By the way, I don't know anyone who has ever argued that Christians died for something they knew to be a myth. I think you are misunderstanding my position now.
OK - lets call an end to this exchange as it's not becoming productive......

I'll leave you to your literary interpretations of the NT and I'll keep my focus on digging down into Hasmonean/Jewish history; a history that is the historical nucleus from which the gospel Jesus story arose. The difference between you and I seems to be that whereas I'm prepared to take on a 'cosmic' Christ element I don't see, on your side, eagerness to take on board an historical element to the gospel Jesus story. Literary interpretations are all interesting but they don't answer the 'why' question about the creation of the story. Historical sources - indeed - and we have two important Jewish sources - Philo and Josephus. It is their writing that needs to be dissected if we are ever to understand the historical origins of what became early christianity.
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