New reconstruction of the Gospel of Marcion by Nicolotti & Gianotto

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Giuseppe
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New reconstruction of the Gospel of Marcion by Nicolotti & Gianotto

Post by Giuseppe »

Prof Nicolotti and Gianotto (Turin university) have proposed a new reconstruction of *Ev, differing (how much?) from Roth's and Klinghardt's.

https://www.academia.edu/39602360/Il_Va ... i_Marcione

Image

I know that Gianotto, being persuaded by Klinghardt, has adopted the priority of *Ev over Matthew and Luke. He is yet unsure about the priority between Mark and *Ev.

I am curious about the Nicolotti's view, given the fact that I find surprising that a potential *Ev prioritist was known, before today, to have published online historicist claims based on the partial authenticity (sic) of the Testimonium Flavianum.

I am expecting a copy of the book.
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Re: New reconstruction of the Gospel of Marcion by Nicolotti & Gianotto

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 4:52 am Prof Nicolotti and Gianotto (Turin university) have proposed a new reconstruction of *Ev, differing (how much?) from Roth's and Klinghardt's.

https://www.academia.edu/39602360/Il_Va ... i_Marcione

Image

I know that Gianotto, being persuaded by Klinghardt, has adopted the priority of *Ev over Matthew and Luke. He is yet unsure about the priority between Mark and *Ev.

I am curious about the Nicolotti's view, given the fact that I find surprising that a potential *Ev prioritist was known, before today, to have published online historicist claims based on the partial authenticity (sic) of the Testimonium Flavianum.

I am expecting a copy of the book.
Are you referring to the 2019 book, or something else?
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Giuseppe
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Re: New reconstruction of the Gospel of Marcion by Nicolotti & Gianotto

Post by Giuseppe »

mlinssen wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 7:21 am
Giuseppe wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 4:52 am Prof Nicolotti and Gianotto (Turin university) have proposed a new reconstruction of *Ev, differing (how much?) from Roth's and Klinghardt's.

https://www.academia.edu/39602360/Il_Va ... i_Marcione

Image

I know that Gianotto, being persuaded by Klinghardt, has adopted the priority of *Ev over Matthew and Luke. He is yet unsure about the priority between Mark and *Ev.

I am curious about the Nicolotti's view, given the fact that I find surprising that a potential *Ev prioritist was known, before today, to have published online historicist claims based on the partial authenticity (sic) of the Testimonium Flavianum.

I am expecting a copy of the book.
Are you referring to the 2019 book, or something else?
Yes. They have published this year also a little book, The "case" Marcion.

Still I don't know if their apologetical strategy is the same of Roth: to insist that the original text is not recoverable, therefore let it go, all as before.

As I have said, Nicolotti has reputed to be too apologetic on Internet in terms of naive historicist claims. He wrote a book against the authenticity of the shroud, but only in order to secure the Christian readers that it was a pious fraud, not dictated by what would animate "other kinds of lies".

But maybe I may be wrong...
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Giuseppe
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Re: New reconstruction of the Gospel of Marcion by Nicolotti & Gianotto

Post by Giuseppe »

First general views on the book:
  • the text resembles much the text as reconstructed by Klinghardt;
  • the text, according to the editors, doesn't reflect "unequivocally" the marcionite theology;
  • according to the editors, some episodes that may fit well the marcionite theology, are not found in the text.
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Giuseppe
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Re: New reconstruction of the Gospel of Marcion by Nicolotti & Gianotto

Post by Giuseppe »

The suspicion of apologetics in action is when the editors insist implicitly in describing the Jesus of Mcn as not so different from the Jesus of the Judaizers. For example, in the following quote, apart the part in blue (remember who "Bar-Abbas" is really), I have pointed out in black the passages where they describe the Jesus of Mcn as if he was a pious adorer of the creator:

The Jesus of Mcn is not very different from that of Lk. He works essentially in a Jewish environment and preaches in the synagogues and in the Temple, but he also addresses a Gentile audience. He is seen by his countrymen as a physician, healer, thaumaturge, and prophet; he may never have explicitly given himself the title of messiah, preferring to identify himself as a "son of man" and addressing God as a father. He chose some followers who consider him as their teacher and to whom he promises powers to fight diseases and every enemy force. In general, he addresses people to listen to him and put his teachings into practice, as God himself, appearing during the transfiguration, invites them to do. It seems that Jesus plays some role in the judgment of men, and will return with power to free those who follow him. After the resurrection from the dead, there will be no more family ties.

Jesus and his followers do not follow a particular ascetic conduct and break some social conventions. They avoid riches, incompatible with the service of God. Jesus frequently clashes with the Pharisees, but also, to a lesser extent, with the doctors of the law and the Jewish authorities. The condemnation of Jesus is desired by these authorities but executed by Pilate and the Roman soldiers.

Jesus and his followers believe in one God, creator and responsible for what happens on earth; he is called father and lord of heaven; he is compassionate, justifier, savior; the approach of his kingdom is the subject of Jesus' preaching, and his plan is inscrutable except to Jesus himself and the little ones of the earth. He sends his spirit to those who call upon him, spirit who has not to be opposed. Impure demons, on the other hand, oppose themselves to God's plan, although Mcn leaves little room for them compared to what they have in the canonized gospels.

(p. CX-CXI, my translation)
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Re: New reconstruction of the Gospel of Marcion by Nicolotti & Gianotto

Post by schillingklaus »

So it is just more apologistic drivel in the likeness of Harnack's, Roth's, Lieu's, Ehrman's,...
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Re: New reconstruction of the Gospel of Marcion by Nicolotti & Gianotto

Post by mlinssen »

schillingklaus wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:46 am So it is just more apologistic drivel in the likeness of Harnack's, Roth's, Lieu's, Ehrman's,...
That is to be expected of course, yet good news: the more falsifiers feel obliged to Christify everything that moves, the greater the likely unease with the subject at hand
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Re: New reconstruction of the Gospel of Marcion by Nicolotti & Gianotto

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Giuseppe wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 9:55 am The suspicion of apologetics in action is when the editors insist implicitly in describing the Jesus of Mcn as not so different from the Jesus of the Judaizers. For example, in the following quote, apart the part in blue (remember who "Bar-Abbas" is really), I have pointed out in black the passages where they describe the Jesus of Mcn as if he was a pious adorer of the creator:

The Jesus of Mcn is not very different from that of Lk. He works essentially in a Jewish environment and preaches in the synagogues and in the Temple, but he also addresses a Gentile audience. He is seen by his countrymen as a physician, healer, thaumaturge, and prophet; he may never have explicitly given himself the title of messiah, preferring to identify himself as a "son of man" and addressing God as a father. He chose some followers who consider him as their teacher and to whom he promises powers to fight diseases and every enemy force. In general, he addresses people to listen to him and put his teachings into practice, as God himself, appearing during the transfiguration, invites them to do. It seems that Jesus plays some role in the judgment of men, and will return with power to free those who follow him. After the resurrection from the dead, there will be no more family ties.

Jesus and his followers do not follow a particular ascetic conduct and break some social conventions. They avoid riches, incompatible with the service of God. Jesus frequently clashes with the Pharisees, but also, to a lesser extent, with the doctors of the law and the Jewish authorities. The condemnation of Jesus is desired by these authorities but executed by Pilate and the Roman soldiers.

Jesus and his followers believe in one God, creator and responsible for what happens on earth; he is called father and lord of heaven; he is compassionate, justifier, savior; the approach of his kingdom is the subject of Jesus' preaching, and his plan is inscrutable except to Jesus himself and the little ones of the earth. He sends his spirit to those who call upon him, spirit who has not to be opposed. Impure demons, on the other hand, oppose themselves to God's plan, although Mcn leaves little room for them compared to what they have in the canonized gospels.

(p. CX-CXI, my translation)
I doubt your translation is any good, Giuseppe

:cheeky:

I have read work on Thomas by Annese and other Italians: all of it is absolutely uneventful in every aspect, and basically a translation of any orthodox American piece.
I'm not holding my breath for that CISSR invite :tombstone:
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