The Ultimate Mythicism

[Secret Alias]

What if Jesus was the invention of the gospel writer to prove that God didn't exist. In other words, the author knew there never was a Jesus. There never was a Jesus but he was 'god' to make the point ... get this ... that God Himself didn't exist. The world was empty. There was no point to anything. Everything is a lie. So he invented a non-existent ahistorical 'Jesus' to embody the non-existence of God, the end of morality, the end of truth - everything. So all his moral teachings were really nihilistic musings on morality. When he commands people to love one another this new morality comes from the perspective of someone who never existed. He's the non-existent God. So really by having the non-existent God say this or that the author is really poking fun at altruism. He's saying that altruism doesn't exist. That the good is non-existent. That there is nothing but the void. This is the ultimate mythicism.

[Leucius Charinus]

Three questions:

1) If they "invented a non-existent ahistorical 'Jesus' to embody the non-existence of God, the end of morality, the end of truth - everything" then what purpose was served by the invention of the Anti-Christ? Some sort of escape hatch?

2) If they made the claim that "the good is non-existent" that would represent a total reversal of the philosophy of the Platonists who regarded "The Good" as "The All", "The Universe" and in some cases "god". Was this negation intentional? This negation also applies to the Stoic philosophers. For example where Marcus Aurelius writes ----- "It is man's duty to follow his daimon, which reflects the cosmic will. This requires us to love humanity in general and to act altruistically"

3) Finally we all know the invention of Jesus was not ex nihilo but involved massive copy/pasting from the LXX. They thus don't start with a void but with the older more established god of the Hebrew Bible. When the invented Jesus commands people to love one another this is not a new morality but comes from data-harvesting the extant "wisdom literature" from antiquity. Jesus Mythicism should disengage with moralistic arguments and engage more (IMHO) with the historical method.

"The various modes of worship, which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people, as equally true; by the philosopher, as equally false; and by the magistrate, as equally useful." ~ Gibbon

[Secret Alias]

The post was done in jest.

[mlinssen]

The LXX is a purely Christian product - there is no extant LXX of any kind until after 4th CE at the very earliest with biased and optimistic paleographic "dating"

The LXX is one of the cornerstones of the NT and the Church, supporting its fake prophecies and stories by fake translations

Some of it in there actually is a reliable translation, yes. There are exceptions to every rule - but the entire goal of writing the LXX was to back the Christian lie

[John T]

The post was done in jest.

Jean-Paul Sarte the father of Existentialism would be proud of your little essay. That God does not exist, therefore there are no objective values or religious commandments to appeal to. Let us return to the savage, brutal ways of the animal. Might makes right, etc.

Existentialism is the ultimate mythicism.
But to what end?

[Secret Alias]

I don't know that existentialism is the ultimate mythicism. My point was merely to point out that mythicism often comes from the unchecked influence of modern (or post-modern) deconstructionist thinking. There's this kind of 'everyone knows that' and then some modern assumption follows. I think there is 'myth' in the gospel. To me at least the main protagonist in any story is the mouthpiece of the author. I think historicists have too much naivete about the gospel being God's mouthpiece. We see that in Jewish attitudes toward the Pentateuch. There's a f----ing narrator here who clearly isn't God. Who is the narrator? The best answer is Ezra and in some sense 'Moses' is the mouthpiece of Ezra it's inescapable.

In the same way Jesus being this mouthpiece for parables, similitudes, riddles = the author in someway acknowledging that the narrative itself is a fable or at least that there is something going on at the core of the story that isn't rooted in 'facts.' Do I think that the gospel is about 'outer space'? No. I don't know what the literary purpose of the gospel is. My naive guess is that the author took advantage of the end of the second commonwealth period to institute a new cultus that wasn't dependent on sacrifice. Can I prove it? No probably not.

[John T]

...I think there is 'myth' in the gospel. To me at least the main protagonist in any story is the mouthpiece of the author. I think historicists have too much naivete about the gospel being God's mouthpiece...I don't know what the literary purpose of the gospel is.

Naivete for the fundamentalist perhaps, but the historicist, not so much.

"Since many have undertaken to set down an orderly account of the events that have been fulfilled among us just as they were handed on to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, I too decided, after investigating everything carefully from the very first, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus." Luke 1:1-3.

Luke does not claim God told him what to say.

There is also a myth about George Washington chopping down a cherry tree but that does not give license for mythicists like Carrier et. al. to say because of that myth, George Washington never existed.

The purpose of the gospel is clear; God is good and Satan is evil and they both want you to make a choice who you will serve. You don't have to believe the cautionary tale but there it is, in a nut-shell.

[Secret Alias]

Luke does not claim God told him what to say.

But Luke even according to the Church Fathers was tertiary. The gospel is Mark. Then Matthew fixed it up better. Luke came along and did something else. I think Irenaeus wrote Luke. The reason for this is (a) he's the first to mention a gospel of Luke AND Luke's 'account' fits Irenaeus's idiosyncratic view of a non-holy gospel fits Irenaeus's view of the gospel as non-holy i.e. mere 'commentary' on the Old Testament.

[Secret Alias]

The purpose of the gospel is clear; God is good and Satan is evil and they both want you to make a choice who you will serve.

That's obviously not the literary purpose of the gospel.

[Secret Alias]

All the times Satan/Devil is mentioned in the gospel

Matthew 4:1, 10, Mark 1:12 - 13, Luke 4:1, 8 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil ... Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”

Matthew 12:26, Mark 3:23, 26, Luke 11:18 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?

Matthew 13:39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

Matthew 16:23, Mark 8:33 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mark 4:15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Luke 13:16 So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound—think of it—for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?”

Luke 22:3, John 13:2, 27 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve.

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

Luke 8:12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

John 8:37 - 44 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you ... You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.