JW:
The purpose of this Thread is to inventory the reasons supporting the argument that the only place you can find
the Christian James mentioned in original Josephus is in "They Never Said That". I have faith that most Skeptics
don't appreciate just how good the argument is. I'm not really concerned with what Believers like "John" Stauros
think since they also think that Jesus sacrificed himself to himself thereby conquering death by dying and
putting an end to his own eternal law.
So let's start the list with the same best reason not to think Josephus originally wrote the TF:
1) The Argument from Silence:
1 - No evidence for the He's Dead James(HDJ) before Eusebius, except possibly Origen.
- 1) General silence - expectation that if the HDJ existed it would have been used due to its importance to Christianity.
- 1 - Probably most, if not all, Church Fathers would have heard of/been familiar with Josephus as he was the official historian of 1st century Israel where they thought Jesus was from.
2 - For Church Fathers with a minimum of extant writings, most refer to/quote from Josephus and he is actually the most referred to non-Christian author of the early Church.
3 - After Eusebius some major Church authors still don't refer to the HDJ Presumably because their copies don't have it.
- ca.140 CE Justin Martyr
- For the Cave, consider that Justin was a philosopher in
Rome and his interests were:
1) Jesus
2) 1st century Israel
3) Arguing with Pagan and Jewish philosophers
The related question should be:
Why wouldn't Justin be familiar with Josephus?
I also wonder if the Cave is even willing to concede that
extant Church Father writings prove the Fathers could
read and write. Maybe they just dictated, or maybe they
became blind or maybe they were temporarily sight-
impared while Josephus was in front of them.
ca.180 CE Irenaeus - uses Josephus
ca.190 CE Clement of Alexandria - uses Josephus
ca.200 CE Tertullian - uses Josephus
ca.200 CE Minucius Felix - uses Josephus
ca.210 CE Hippolytus - uses Josephus
ca.220 CE Sextus Julius Africanus - uses Josephus
ca.230 CE [backing up truck noise]Origen[/backing up truck noise] - uses Josephus
See 3 "James, the brother of Jesus" passage
Origen specifically says that Josephus mentions a Christian James in two separate Origen writings. Jesus, that's pretty direct. But (and I cannot lie, I like big buts) most of the related detail Origen attributes to Josephus is not in extant Josephus but in extant Hegesippus. So it's possible
Origen never saw it in Josephus. Then note the following Patristics who still make no mention of it. Origen, being the outstanding Textual Critic of the early Church, was subsequently accused of Judaizing his writings which were then edited. More uncertainty.
ca.240 CE Cyprian
ca.270 CE Anatolius - uses Josephus
ca.290 CE Arnobius
ca.300 CE Methodius - uses Josephus
ca.300 CE Lactantius
Of the 13 Fathers here who show no awareness of the HDJ 9 show use of Josephus. In addition a decent argument can be
made that a few of the 4 who show no clear reference to Josephus do have some decent parallels. Comically, Roger Pearse started this list in order to demonstrate that the Fathers in general would have no interest in Josephus and ends up demonstrating that the conclusion he disputes is correct.
Note that it's not just the quantity of Patristics who show no awareness of the HDJ up to E (Eusebius) that is remarkable but
also the quantity of years, over 200, with no* awareness of the HDJ. - For the Cave, consider that Justin was a philosopher in
Josephus
The Palestinians should not launch knives, bullets and rockets at the Israelis but the Israelis should not give houses back to the descendants of
Jews who had their houses stolen from them by the Palestinians. - Andy Levin
http://thenewporphyry.blogspot.com/ - 1 - Probably most, if not all, Church Fathers would have heard of/been familiar with Josephus as he was the official historian of 1st century Israel where they thought Jesus was from.