Secret Mark and Mark 16:8

[StephenGoranson]

Without belaboring some differences, such as whether Clement wrote the Letter, two observations.

1) In claiming a Marcionite gospel you didn't address that the Letter calls it, instead, Carpocratian.

2) In claiming Ambrose, Origen's patron, was formerly a Marcionite you didn't address that he may have been, instead, a Valentinian, and perhaps a student of Heracleon.

[Secret Alias]

1. I think the Carpocratians are a dubious association which develops likely from a misunderstanding in Celsus. Origen hints as much.
2. if 50% odds at the casino I'm taking it. And if 'Valentinian' likely Marcosian "of Mark." Not sure that's not a winning hand either. Heads I win, tails I win.

[StephenGoranson]

fwiw
1. Celsus affects that Letter?
2. Declare yourself winner; convincing readers might be another matter.

[Secret Alias]

1. Celsus says "Harpocratians of Salome" later (we don't have any earlier editions of Hegesippus we end up with 'Carpocratians' which seems to be an error). Origen says he's never met a Carpocratian or something to that an effect.
2. Ambrose is tied to a heretical movement. If it's the Marcionites or the Marcosians it's the same difference. In the former case you have a gospel which Clement identifies as having an additional resurrection scene:

3.4.25.1 Τῶν δὲ ἀφ' αἱρέσεως ἀγομένων Μαρκίωνος μὲν τοῦ Ποντικοῦ ἐπεμνήσθημεν δι' ἀντίταξιν τὴν πρὸς τὸν δημιουργὸν τὴν 3.4.25.2 χρῆσιν τῶν κοσμικῶν παραιτουμένου. γίνεται δὲ αὐτῷ τῆς ἐγκρατείας αἴτιος, εἴ γε τοῦτο ἐγκράτειαν ῥητέον, αὐτὸς ὁ δημιουργός, πρὸς ὃν ὁ θεομάχος οὗτος γίγας ἀνθεστάναι οἰόμενος ἄκων ἐστὶν 3.4.25.3 ἐγκρατὴς κατατρέχων καὶ τῆς κτίσεως καὶ τοῦ πλάσματος. κἂν συγχρήσωνται τῇ τοῦ κυρίου φωνῇ λέγοντος τῷ Φιλίππῳ· ἄφες τοὺς νεκροὺς θάψαι τοὺς ἑαυτῶν νεκρούς, σὺ δὲ ἀκολούθει μοι, ἀλλ' ἐκεῖνο σκοπείτωσαν ὡς τὴν ὁμοίαν τῆς σαρκὸς πλάσιν καὶ 3.4.25.4 Φίλιππος φέρει, νεκρὸν οὐκ ἔχων μεμιαμμένον. πῶς οὖν σαρκίον ἔχων νεκρὸν οὐκ εἶχεν; ὅτι ἐξανέστη τοῦ μνήματος τοῦ κυρίου τὰ 3.4.25.5 πάθη νεκρώσαντος, ἔζησε δὲ Χριστῷ.

This is followed by a reference to Carpocrates. If it's the Marcosians the case is even easier to make because there is strong evidence that Clement is a follower of Mark (the heretic). I chose to emphasize the Marcionite connection (I don't even remember what I said). Just trying to be objective.

[billd89]

Wiki, Because I'm lazy:

Carpocratian, follower of Carpocrates, a 2nd-century Christian Gnostic, i.e., a religious dualist who believed that matter was evil and the spirit good and that salvation was gained through esoteric knowledge, or gnosis. The sect flourished in Alexandria.

IF correct, an Alexandrian cult, which suspicuously resembles the communitarianism of the Therapeutae (plus a spurious slander of sexual immorality?). Also, generally, this.

However -- alternatively --, "Harpocratians" would be (presumably) derivative of Harpocrates/Horus of Kasios in the Sethrum: Siriad "Jews" (emphasizing the Young God) become Gnostic Judeo-Christians of Eastern Egypt. Clement's letter to a distant churchman combating Judeo-Christian heretics elsewhere in Egypt makes more sense to me.

Again, Wiki:

In the non-canonical Greek Gospel of the Egyptians (2nd century), Salome appears again as a disciple of Jesus. [...] It would appear from this text that there was an early tradition that Salome the disciple was childless, and possibly unmarried.

This Mary Salome, unmarried midwife and religious disciple, fits exactly the role & character expected of a (Sethian?) Therapeutide.

A Phoenician statue of Harpocrates, the Young God:


I am more persuaded than Roger Pearse that Young Horus & Jesus functionally overlap, but I also think there's more to (Semitic?) Libyan 'Iolaos', Young Friend of Herakles in (now lost) Siriad myth.

If the OT has Egyptian roots, we should see the Young God buried in Jewish myths also. David and Jonathan as Heracles and Iolaus, perhaps? (Both heroes slew the Lion and the Giant, etc.)

[MrMacSon]

Carpocrates

Name, provenance, and date
Carpocrates, sometimes called “Carpocras” (Epiphanius, Pan. 27.1.1; Filastrius, Div. Haer. 35.1) was probably born in the late first century CE. His name means “master of the harvest,” and it was an epithet or alternative name of the Egyptian god Harpocrates.⁷⁰ Harpocrates, or Horus the Child (Har-pa-chered), was son of the divine Isis and Osiris sometimes identified with Sarapis) (Plutarch, Is. Os.358e). In amulets, Harpocrates appears seated “on a lotus flower or boat, representing the rising sun.” Horus the Child was often depicted as being suckled by his mother or by sitting with one lock of braided hair and a finger in his mouth. This sucking gesture was taken by Greeks and Romans to signify silence and mystery.

... His Egyptian name might indicate a man of Egyptian ancestry (cf. Pliny the Younger, Ep. 10.6–7). Biographical data on Carpocrates only comes from Clement (Strom. 3.2.5.1–2). Carpocrates had a wife named Alexandreia. He also had a son, Epiphanes, whom he instructed in encyclical and Platonic studies ...

The tradition that Carpocrates was Alexandrian is stated by Clement (Strom. 3.2.5.2, followed by Theodoret, Fab. 1.5.1) ...

It is conceivable that Carpocrates flourished between 117–166 CE, but we can plausibly narrow his floruit to about 135–165 CE. This range indicates that, if Carpocrates was active during the (later) reign of Hadrian, most of his career was spent during the reign of Antoninus Pius (reigned 138–161 CE). Additional confirmation of this date emerges from Justin, who reported on Basilides in the Syntagma, but not on Carpocrates. Basilides was already a well-known Alexandrian theologian. Carpocrates was apparently somewhat younger, and Justin’s knowledge of the Carpocratian movement—if indeed he encountered it—would only emerge with the advent of Marcellina in Rome (155 CE at the earliest).

The first known Christian writer to mention Carpocratians was apparently Hegesippus, who sojourned in Rome probably in the late 170s CE. The Valentinian Heracleon, who was perhaps also living at Rome at the time, noted Carpocratian aural cauterization—though he did not call the practice Carpocratian. Celsus mentioned Carpocratian groups around 177 CE.

Carpocrates in the heresy catalogs
By the mid-170s CE, I hypothesize that an anonymous editor had updated Justin’s Syntagma to include Carpocrates. He was placed between figures who reportedly upheld angelic creation (Simon of Samaria, Menander, Saturninus) and those who emphasized that Christ was born like all other humans (Cerinthus and the “Ebionites”). Carpocrates was said to have maintained both teachings. Carpocrates was thus conceived of as something of a bridge figure, as can be seen from the various succession lists:

Irenaeus, Adv. Haer. 1	Refutation of All Heresies 6-8	Adv. Om. Haer.1	Epiphanius, Pan. 21–46	Filastrius, Div. Haer. 29-51
Valentinus .& disciples		Jewish sects (Dositheans, etc)
Simon	Simon	Simon	Simon	Simon
Menander	Valentinus .& disciples	Menander	Menander	Menander
Saturninus	Basilides	Saturninus	Saturninus	Saturninus
Basilides	Saturninus	Basilides	Basilides	Basilides
		Nicolaitans	Nicolaitans	Nicolaitans
		Ophites	'Gnostics'
	Marcion	Cainites		Judas-ites
	Prepon	Sethians
Carpocrates	Carpocrates	Carpocrates	Carpocrates	Carpocrates
Cerinthus	Cerinthus	Cerinthus	Cerinthus	Cerinthus
Ebionites	Ebionites	Ebion(ites)	Nazoreans	Ebion(ites)
Nicolaitans	Theodotus I	Valentinus .& disciples	Ebionites	Valentinus
Cerdo	Theodotus II	Cerdo	Valentinus	Ptolemy
Marcion	Nicolaus	Marcion	Secundus	Secundus
Taitan	Cerdo	Apelles	Ptolemy	Heraclon
'Barbelo- .Gnostics'	Apelles	Taitan	Marcus	Marcus
'Ophites'	Docetai	Pharygians (Proclus & Aeschines)	Colorbasus	Colorbasus
Cainites	Monoimus*	Blastus	Heraclon	Cerdo
	Tatian	Theodotus I	Ophites	Marcion
	Hermogenes	Theodotus II	Cainites	Lucan
	Quartodecimans	Praxeas	Sethians	Apelles
	Phyrgians		Archontics	Tatians
			Cerdo	Pharygians
			Marcion	Theodotus
			Lucian
			Apelles
			Severus
			Tatian

* aka Monoϊmus

As can be seen from this chart, Carpocrates was a consistent character in heresiographical literature. He regularly emerges toward the beginning of the Christian sects, situated after a succession of so-called “gnostics”: Simon, Menander, Saturninus, and Basilides (though the Refutator omits Menander and interchanges Saturninus and Basilides). Carpocrates is then followed by two figures or groups: Cerinthus (or Cerinthians) and Ebion(ites) (though Epiphanius inserts another “Jewish-Christian” sect between the Cerinthians and “Ebionites”). Roelof van den Broek represents the Ebionites as “pupils” of Carpocrates, but they are united in only one doctrine: the human birth of Jesus through male insemination.

1 Adversus Omnes Haereses = Against All Heresies by 'Pseudo-Tertullian'

Carpocrates, Marcellina, and Epiphanes: Three Early Christian Teachers of Alexandria and Rome
M. David Litwa, 2022, pp.212-5

[schillingklaus]

Most of these people only exist in the blooming fantasy of apologists and patrists. This is especially the case for the whole Carpocrates family.

[billd89]

Most of these people only exist in the blooming fantasy of apologists and patrists. This is especially the case for the whole Carpocrates family.

Perhaps. If everything derives from Clement (a single source) -- or Clement, plus 'Patristic rumor' -- then Carpocrates might never have existed. Too easily. I'm not vehemently opposed to Church sources -- we have little else -- but in any case I discount the absolute value of 'all your eggs in one basket'. I need two of three independent sources to Confirm; your mileage may vary.

Obviously, I am willing to entertain the possibility 'something is there': the name itself encodes something that certainly fits a shit-ton of other evidence (most of it archaeological). So who were the Harpocratians, theoretically? Descendents of people who worshipped this god, evident in hundreds of statues. There was definitely something there; 'Carpocrates' remains a Maybe.

[billd89]

If the OT has Egyptian roots, we should see the Young God buried in Jewish myths also. David and Jonathan as Heracles and Iolaus, perhaps? (Both heroes slew the Lion and the Giant, etc.)

If Moses would be a perfect 'Judeo-Egyptian' substitute for Graeco- Phoenician Herakles (i.e Twelve Labors, etc.), then semi-divine "Shadow of God" (Child Artisan) Bezalel/Bezaleel -- a Hephaistos-like character who sounds correspondingly mythic -- may be the best Semitic variant of Iolaos (minus the homerotic element) we seek. Bezalel was obviously suited to have been the 'patron-saint' of the ancient Alexandrian brassworkers' guild (i.e. Braziers), the notorious 'Synagogue of the Libertinos' at Jerusalem. Why were the Libertines deemed Minim, again? (Harpocratians were scandalously 'libertine' we are told.) Maybe it's all a coincidence?

Herakles & Iolaos // Apollo & Horus/Adonis // Melqart & Eshmun = David & Jonathan // Moses & Bezalel

[andrewcriddle]

An aspect of 'Secret Mark' that has not previously addressed in other threads on the topic here is apparent to me.

There is a strong similitude in the Jesus-Youth Secret Teaching to 'Libyan' myth of a mystical resurrection of Herakles by his younger boyfriend 'nephew' Iolaos. (The Libyan Myth is frankly Semitic, strongly parallel to the folkloric practices of Tyre; other scholars have discussed that.) I need not belabor the homoerotic theme in the pair; many other scholars have addressed that also.

The relevance here would be known parallels of Jesus to Herakles (in works, cited below) affirmed by a Semitic No.African variant of the homerotic resurrection combined w/ the pedagogical feature (where Iolaos is presumed both Herakles student and devoted tender, like the Horos priest of Kasios tended to Zeus of Kasios) at the center of the story.

The Greek record of the 'Libyan' myth erased Semitic names, but a Judeo-Egyptian version still current c.50 BC would have derivative Phoenician names from the Adon Mythos (assuming this came directly from Semite emigrants of Tyre). Or it may be the relic gods Melqart and Eshmun, presented in some folkloric tale carried by Semitic mercenaries c.400 BC -- and become the amalgam of ensuing Savior/Hero myths, as nightshadetwine recognizes.

'Secret Mark' would have re-purposed and varied the ancient myth for/by the Carpocratians (Cappadocians?) of Egypt. In some Jewish Gnostic community, the old 'Herakles/Iolaos' myth was preserved, overlaid w/ Christian themes c.125 AD. ('Iolaos' -- however called locally -- is the Hor-Apollo character evident in statuary found in Egypt and Gaza.) Myth recycling again, and lending some plausibility to the Secret Mark story (theoretically).

I agree that our accounts of this episode probably derive from a lost Libyan/Egyptian myth. However our surviving evidence shows little resemblance to Secret Mark.

E.G. Athenaeus

And Eudoxus the Cnidian, in the first book of his Description of the Circuit of the Earth, says that the Phœnicians sacrifice quails to Hercules, because Hercules, the son of Asteria and Jupiter, when on his way towards Libya, was slain by Typhon and restored to life by Iolaus, who brought a quail to him and put it to his nose, and the smell revived him. For when he was alive he was, says Eudoxus, very partial to that bird.

Andrew Criddle