Carrier v. Litwa: What Did the “Ascension of Isaiah” Originally Say?

[GakuseiDon]

The Slavonic has a similar passage. So all the 3 extant texts have an appearance on earth. True, there is no passage describing a hanging in S/L2, but straight after that the Beloved ascends to heaven. Something is missing in between. Given the descent earlier in the text, the crucifixion either takes place on earth or under the earth.

Prof Arthur Droge disagrees on this, since the "mundo" can well be interpreted as the Firmament. More evidence is necessary to exorcize the rational suspicion that demons work directly on their victims only in lower heavens.

I'd like to see the context on that if you have it. "And I saw the likeness of the son of man, dwelling with men and in the world" seems to clearly indicate living on the earth to me.

[dbz]

It is just at this point that we should expect Isaiah to go on and describe the crucifixion of Christ by the “Archon of this world” and his minions, in fulfillment of what had been previously foreshadowed at Ascen. Isa. 9:14–15. Instead, this report has been removed and several paragraphs have been interpolated in its place that give a brief summary of Christ's painless birth, his miracles, and his equally painless crucifixion. [Ascen. Isa. 11:2–22. Not only does this interpolated material differ in style and content, it is found in only one branch of the manuscript tradition, the one represented by the Ethiopic translation. Both the Latin and Slavonic versions omit the whole of 11:2–22, and replace them with a short summary of the earthly appearance of “one like a son of man.” who dwelt on the earth unrecognized.]

(p. 15, n. 54)

Droge, Arthur. "Whodunnit? Paul's Peculiar Passion and Its Implications". Academia.edu. Retrieved 25 October 2022. "Forthcoming in a collection of essays on Paul."

Cf. Godfrey, Neil (11 May 2021). "Celestial or Earthly Christ Event? Why So Much Confusion About Paul?". Vridar.

[Giuseppe]

The Slavonic has a similar passage. So all the 3 extant texts have an appearance on earth. True, there is no passage describing a hanging in S/L2, but straight after that the Beloved ascends to heaven. Something is missing in between. Given the descent earlier in the text, the crucifixion either takes place on earth or under the earth.

Prof Arthur Droge disagrees on this, since the "mundo" can well be interpreted as the Firmament. More evidence is necessary to exorcize the rational suspicion that demons work directly on their victims only in lower heavens.

I'd like to see the context on that if you have it. "And I saw the likeness of the son of man, dwelling with men and in the world" seems to clearly indicate living on the earth to me.

For example, so prof Droge:

But once Christ reaches the lowest or sublunary region – called the “Firmament” – his disguise will change again, and this time he will assume the outward appearance of a human. Indeed, the “God of that world” and his evil hosts will think that Christ is merely “flesh.” [51]

(p. 14, my bold)

The note 51 reads:

[51] See Ascen. Isa. 10:11: “None of the angels of that world shall know that you (are) the Lord with me in the seven heavens,” and 11:16: Christ’s advent “was hidden from all the heavens and all the princes and all the gods of this world.” Ascen. Isa. 7:9, 11 make clear that the “God of that world” refers to “Satan,” who is also called “Samael.” He is elsewhere called the “Archon of this world” (10:29; cf. 2:4; 4:2, 4) and the “Adversary” (11:19), whose minions are referred to as the “angels of the air” (10:30) or the “angels of the Firmament” (11:23).

At p. 15:

In any event, the interpolation looks like a later attempt to historicize, and thus render orthodox, what had once been a cosmic or gnostic version of the crucifixion, one in which the hostile powers of the lower world had crucified Christ “in the Firmament,” not “in Jerusalem.” Even so, the parallels with our passage remain striking, for it is still these powers of the Firmament – in so many words, the “Archons of this Aeon” – who bear ultimate responsibility for the crucifixion.

(my bold)

On the presence of even cities of humans in lower heavens, cfr. the Apocalypse Of Zephaniah, after 100 BCE and before 70 CE:

21Now I went with the angel of the Lord, and he took me up (over) all my city. There was nothing before my eyes. 2Then I saw two men walking together on one road. I watched them as they talked. 3And, moreover, I also saw two women grinding together at a mill. And I watched them as they talked. 4And I also saw two upon a bed, each one of them acting for their (mutual) … upon a bed. 5And I saw the whole inhabited world hanging like a drop of water which is suspended from a bucket when it comes up from a well. 6I said unto the angel of the Lord. “Then does not darkness or night exist in this place?” 7He said unto me, “No, because darkness existeth not in that place where the righteous and the saints are, but rather they always exist in the light.”

Hence even if Jesus was confused as a mere man among men in the eyes of demons, where are those men? Still in lower heavens, or on the earth? Any doubt can be removed only by something of similar to the pocket gospel.

[dbz]

"And I saw the likeness of the son of man, dwelling with men and in the world" seems to clearly indicate living on the earth to me.

The architect Vitruvius, who lived in the first century AD, included some comments on cosmology in his treatise On Architecture, written in Latin. He wrote:

[...unum a terra inmane in summo mundo ac post ipsas stellas septentrionum...]

Here is a translation of the passage:

The universe is the total conception of the whole system, and the firmament with its ordered constellations. It rolls continually round the earth and sea, on the furthest poles of its axis. For there the power of nature like an architect, has contrived and placed the poles at the top of the universe and behind the very stars of the Great Bear, and the other opposite, under the earth in the regions of the south; and there has constructed rims of wheels (which the Greeks call asides) round centres as in a lathe, about which the firmament for ever rolls. Thus the middle of the earth and sea is set by nature in the central place.

Curiously enough, although the word 'firmament' appears in the English translation, there is no mention of the word firmament in the original Latin text. Apparently, in the time of Vitruvius, the word 'firmament' did not refer to the sky.

Douglas E. Cox. "Report on the Firmament". creationconcept.info. Retrieved 25 October 2022.

[GakuseiDon]

I'd like to see the context on that if you have it. "And I saw the likeness of the son of man, dwelling with men and in the world" seems to clearly indicate living on the earth to me.

For example, so prof Droge: <snipped>

Thanks for that, Giuseppe.

On the presence of even cities of humans in lower heavens, cfr. the Apocalypse Of Zephaniah, after 100 BCE and before 70 CE:

21Now I went with the angel of the Lord, and he took me up (over) all my city. There was nothing before my eyes. 2Then I saw two men walking together on one road. I watched them as they talked. 3And, moreover, I also saw two women grinding together at a mill. And I watched them as they talked. 4And I also saw two upon a bed, each one of them acting for their (mutual) … upon a bed. 5And I saw the whole inhabited world hanging like a drop of water which is suspended from a bucket when it comes up from a well. 6I said unto the angel of the Lord. “Then does not darkness or night exist in this place?” 7He said unto me, “No, because darkness existeth not in that place where the righteous and the saints are, but rather they always exist in the light.”

The link describes this as "Scenes from above the seer’s city". So it seems to be the seer viewing his city (on earth) from the air.

[GakuseiDon]

The architect Vitruvius, who lived in the first century AD, included some comments on cosmology in his treatise On Architecture, written in Latin. He wrote:

[...unum a terra inmane in summo mundo ac post ipsas stellas septentrionum...]

Here is a translation of the passage:

The universe is the total conception of the whole system, and the firmament with its ordered constellations. It rolls continually round the earth and sea, on the furthest poles of its axis. For there the power of nature like an architect, has contrived and placed the poles at the top of the universe and behind the very stars of the Great Bear, and the other opposite, under the earth in the regions of the south; and there has constructed rims of wheels (which the Greeks call asides) round centres as in a lathe, about which the firmament for ever rolls. Thus the middle of the earth and sea is set by nature in the central place.

Curiously enough, although the word 'firmament' appears in the English translation, there is no mention of the word firmament in the original Latin text. Apparently, in the time of Vitruvius, the word 'firmament' did not refer to the sky.

Douglas E. Cox. "Report on the Firmament". creationconcept.info. Retrieved 25 October 2022.

Interesting. I don't know what to make of that. AoI clearly has the Beloved descending from the 7th heaven, down to the 6th, etc, finally to the 1st heaven, then down to the firmament ('firmamentum' in the Latin versions), then descending to the lower sky, and then the comment about the Son of Man dwelling amongst men in the world. Maybe 'firmamentum' meant firmament from the Second Century CE? I don't know, but the meaning is clear in AoI: the firmament is below the 1st heaven and above the lower air.

[dbz]

Maybe 'firmamentum' meant firmament from the Second Century CE?

At some point the Greek word for the eighth sphere containing the fixed stars in the Almagest by Ptolemy, was translated as the firmament (firmamentum).

[Giuseppe]

Returning to the topic of this thread, I think a great obstacle for Norelli's view of an original pocket gospel is the birth of Jesus on the earth contra factum that the Son descended always as an adult in the previous heavens. What need of disguising himself as a newborn when the previous descents have proved again and again that it was sufficient an entry as an adult?

29. And again He descended into the firmament where dwelleth the ruler of this world, and He gave the password to those on the left, and His form was like theirs, and they did not praise Him there; but they were envying one another and fighting; for here there is a power of evil and envying about trifles.

30. And I saw when He descended and made Himself like unto the angels of the air, and He was like one of them.

31. And He gave no password; for one was plundering and doing violence to another.

[schillingklaus]

Norelli also carelessly ignores that the evil lord of the world extends his hand against his own son.

[dbz]

What need of disguising himself as a newborn when the previous descents have proved again and again that it was sufficient an entry as an adult?

Yes it should be obvious, can someone email Norelli and get his opinion on why it is not?