Possible Historical Allusions in the Nag Hammadi Library

[Leucius Charinus]

dismissal of Origen quoting at length and commenting on the criticism of Christianity by Celsus as a Constantine-era forgery seems amazingly, improbably, obtuse.

I agree

I will flag Celsus (via Origen) et al as secondary evidence. And I reserve the historian's right to stay with the primary evidence for as long as possible.

('though one might wonder

1. to what extent Celsus is a real interlocutor, in part of in full (as one might wonder for Justin Martyr's Trypho); and
2. to what extent Origen were a repository for more commentary than he really produced (and thus embellished / padded out)

One should certainly wonder how many 4th century sources in the combined 28 volume set of the Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers preserved various "Commentaries" supposedly made by Origen on this and that. Origen certainly was a repository for later writers. The Clementine literature was traditionally dated by references in Origen until scholars understood the references were attributable to the 4th century editors Basil and Gregory.

Then there is the Origenist controversy of the 4th and 5th century over the authenticity or otherwise of the books of Origen.

[Leucius Charinus]

Yes, when I read "possible historical allusions" I did not know that you were interested only in the limited subset of allusions that might help date the texts or translations, or one of them.

Yes well that is precisely what I am interested in here. What is present in the texts of the Nag Hammadi Library by which they may be dated by source criticism. (Setting aside the C14 and the cartonage).

Are there any historical allusions within the texts that may assist the task of estimating the date of composition by means of source criticism?

I have set out a few possible historical allusions above.

[MrMacSon]

One should certainly wonder how many 4th century sources in the combined 28 volume set of the Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers preserved various "Commentaries" supposedly made by Origen on this and that.

What does that mean? That 4th century texts or books preserved or contained various "Commentaries" attributed to Origen? If so, does that include all or just some Commentaries attributed to Origen?

Origen certainly was a repository for later writers. The Clementine literature was traditionally dated by references in Origen until scholars understood the references were attributable to the 4th century editors Basil and Gregory.

Then there is the Origenist controversy of the 4th and 5th century over the authenticity or otherwise of the books of Origen.

And there's the 'two Origen' thing: the second Origen, Origen the Pagan, also said ot be taught by Ammonius Saccas, is mentioned three times in Porphyry's Life of Plotinus where he is treated much more kindly than the Christian Origen, whom Porphyry disliked. Origen the Pagan is also mentioned several times by Proclus, and it is clear that Origen's fellow students Plotinus and Longinus treated him with respect

And the many Eusebiuses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebius_(disambiguation) including a Pope Eusebius, died 310 AD/CE

• even Jerome's name was, apparently, really Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus

[Leucius Charinus]

One should certainly wonder how many 4th century sources in the combined 28 volume set of the Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers preserved various "Commentaries" supposedly made by Origen on this and that.

What does that mean? That 4th century texts or books preserved or contained various "Commentaries" attributed to Origen? If so, does that include all or just some Commentaries attributed to Origen?

Stuff like "Philocalia" - a collection of extracts from Origen's works drawn up by Gregory of Nyssa and Basil of Cæsarea. Stuff like Origen's Commentary on John, Books 1-10, and Commentary on Matthew, Books 1, 2, and 10-14 and everything else in the name of Origen.

Origen and his library may be one of the the most important links in the transmission history of the NT and LXX from the 1st and/or 2nd century by mainstream chronology.

Origen certainly was a repository for later writers. The Clementine literature was traditionally dated by references in Origen until scholars understood the references were attributable to the 4th century editors Basil and Gregory.

Then there is the Origenist controversy of the 4th and 5th century over the authenticity or otherwise of the books of Origen.

And there's the 'two Origen' thing: the second Origen, Origen the Pagan, also said ot be taught by Ammonius Saccas, is mentioned three times in Porphyry's Life of Plotinus where he is treated much more kindly than the Christian Origen, whom Porphyry disliked. Origen the Pagan is also mentioned several times by Proclus, and it is clear that Origen's fellow students Plotinus and Longinus treated him with respect

All of which contributes towards my agreement with Edward Gibbon when he wrote that "The scanty and suspicious materials of ecclesiastical history seldom enable us to dispel the dark cloud that hangs over the first age of the church."

And the many Eusebiuses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebius_(disambiguation) including a Pope Eusebius, died 310 AD/CE

• even Jerome's name was, apparently, really Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus

Jesus H. Christ. I'd not realised how many Eusebii there were in the 4th century.

[Leucius Charinus]

Are there any historical allusions within the texts [of the NHL] that may assist the task of estimating the date of composition by means of source criticism?

I have set out a few possible historical allusions above.

Here's a summary so far:

(1) The Concept of Our Great Power (NHC 6.4) - Is "the archon of the western regions" described in this text a direct allusion to Constantine?

(2) The Apocalypse of Peter (NHC 7.3) - If the Savior was sitting in the temple in the three hundredth (year) of the covenant is the Savior described as being in the 4th century?

(3) The Gospel of Thomas (NHC 2.1) - The Greek noun μοναχός (“single one/monk”) is unattested before the 4th century but occurs multiple times in the NHL. Was this noun interpolated into the Gospel of Thomas (etc) in the 4th century? Or was the Gospel of Thomas (etc) authored in the 4th century?

(4) The Gospel of Thomas (NHC 2.1) - Why does Jesus get handed a "gold coin" in Logion 100 in relation to "Caesar's agents exacting taxes" when imperial taxation demanded payment in gold only from the rule of Diocletian and Constantine? Is this to be viewed as another 4th century interpolation into the Gospel of Thomas? Or was the Gospel of Thomas authored in the later 3rd or 4th century?



Are there any others?

[Leucius Charinus]

(5) Constantine's Destruction and Looting of the Asclepieia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asclepieion

The large scale destruction and the looting of the major Asclepieia (healing temples of Ascelpius) is not attested in antiquity prior to the appearance of Constantine's army in the eastern Roman empire in 324/325 CE. Eusebius describes this in his "Life of Thrice Blessed Constantine" as follows:

Eusebius VC 56: Destruction of the Temple of Aesculapius at Aegae. -

FOR since a wide-spread error of these pretenders to wisdom concerned the demon worshiped in Cilicia, whom thousands regarded with reverence as the possessor of saving and healing power, who sometimes appeared to those who passed the night in his temple, sometimes restored the diseased to health, though on the contrary he was a destroyer of souls, who drew his easily deluded worshipers from the true Saviour to involve them in impious error, the emperor, consistently with his practice, and desire to advance the worship of him who is at once a jealous God and the true Saviour, gave directions that this temple also should be razed to the ground.

In prompt obedience to this command, a band of soldiers laid this building, the admiration of noble philosophers, prostrate in the dust, together with its unseen inmate, neither demon nor god, but rather a deceiver of souls, who had seduced mankind for so long a time through various ages. And thus he who had promised to others deliverance from misfortune and distress, could find no means for his own security, any more than when, as is told in myth, he was scorched by the lightning's stroke. (2) Our emperor's pious deeds, however, had in them nothing fabulous or feigned; but by virtue of the manifested power of his Saviour, this temple as well as others was so utterly overthrown, that not a vestige of the former follies was left behind.

NHC 6.8 is a text in the NHL which depicts a discussion between Hermes and Aslcepius in which Asclepius is asking questions of Hermes. The answers given reflect the looting of the temples, and the persecution of the priesthood, of Asclepius:

Asclepius 21-29: NHC 6.8

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/asclep.html

"Trismegistus, what is the character of the iniquity that is there?"

"Now you think, Asclepius, that when one takes something in a temple, he is impious. For that kind of a person is a thief and a bandit. And this matter concerns gods and men. But do not compare those here with those of the other place. Now I want to speak this discourse to you confidentially; no part of it will be believed. For the souls that are filled with much evil will not come and go in the air, but they will be put in the places of the daimons, which are filled with pain, (and) which are always filled with blood and slaughter, and their food, which is weeping, mourning, and groaning."

"Trismegistus, who are these (daimons)?"

"Asclepius, they are the ones who are called 'stranglers', and those who roll souls down on the dirt, and those who scourge them, and those who cast into the water, and those who cast into the fire, and those who bring about the pains and calamities of men. For such as these are not from a divine soul, nor from a rational soul of man. Rather, they are from the terrible evil."

Selection made from James M. Robinson, ed., The Nag Hammadi Library, revised edition. Harper Collins, San Francisco, 1990.

It therefore seems reasonably certain (to me anyway) that the authorship of the above discussion between Asclepius and Hermes in Nag Hammadi Codex 6 took place sometime after Constantine's destruction and looting of the Asclepieia 324/325 CE.

What do others think?

[mlinssen]

(3) The Gospel of Thomas (NHC 2.1) - The Greek noun μοναχός (“single one/monk”) is unattested before the 4th century but occurs multiple times in the NHL. Was this noun interpolated into the Gospel of Thomas (etc) in the 4th century? Or was the Gospel of Thomas (etc) authored in the 4th century?

(4) The Gospel of Thomas (NHC 2.1) - Why does Jesus get handed a "gold coin" in Logion 100 in relation to "Caesar's agents exacting taxes" when imperial taxation demanded payment in gold only from the rule of Diocletian and Constantine? Is this to be viewed as another 4th century interpolation into the Gospel of Thomas? Or was the Gospel of Thomas authored in the later 3rd or 4th century?



Are there any others?

You're a fool and a falsifier, Pete.
There are tons of textual evidence that Thomas precedes the canonicals and I have spelled out dozens of them, but you choose to ignore them even after being directly challenged to pick one up that is especially made for you.
But what do you do?

You cowardly ignore them, and instead opt to come up with a dumb interpretation of an entirely different logion so that you can connect that with your own dumb theory that has already been debunked a thousand times

[Leucius Charinus]

(3) The Gospel of Thomas (NHC 2.1) - The Greek noun μοναχός (“single one/monk”) is unattested before the 4th century but occurs multiple times in the NHL. Was this noun interpolated into the Gospel of Thomas (etc) in the 4th century? Or was the Gospel of Thomas (etc) authored in the 4th century?

(4) The Gospel of Thomas (NHC 2.1) - Why does Jesus get handed a "gold coin" in Logion 100 in relation to "Caesar's agents exacting taxes" when imperial taxation demanded payment in gold only from the rule of Diocletian and Constantine? Is this to be viewed as another 4th century interpolation into the Gospel of Thomas? Or was the Gospel of Thomas authored in the later 3rd or 4th century?

Are there any others?

You're a fool and a falsifier, Pete.

You must have missed the citations above.

In the case of (3) see:

The “Single Ones” in the Gospel of Thomas: A Monastic Perspective
René Falkenberg

• The Greek noun μοναχός (“single one/monk”) is not attested before 4th century CE. Yet it emerges in the Gospel of Thomas, usually dated to 2nd century. Building on the so-called Monastic Thesis, monks actually read and copied Thomas from 4th century onwards, and based on its attestation of ⲙⲟⲛⲁⲭⲟⲥ they seemingly changed its text too.
  https://www.academia.edu/49567245/The_S ... erspective

In the case of (4) see:

Reading Gospel of Thomas 100 in the Fourth Century
Kimberley A. Fowler
Vigiliae Christianae
Vol. 72, No. 4 (2018), pp. 421-446 (26 pages)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/26567151

• Recent scholarship has made strides in evidencing a Pachomian monastic relationship to the Nag Hammadi Codices, yet this remains to be sufficiently investigated through analysis of Nag Hammadi material bearing Pachomian traits, or best explained within a Pachomian ideological environment. In this article I argue that Gospel of Thomas 100’s redaction of the “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s” pericope (Mk 12:13-17 par.) can be better understood in light of conflict between Pachomian material wealth and ascetic aspirations. The redaction demonstrates that conflict over Roman tax payment, crucial in the first-century context of the Synoptic Gospels, is in this fourth-century context essentially irrelevant

For both (3) and (4) there are plenty more articles written by other researchers concerning these two historical allusions in Thomas. But I guess these other researchers are also fools and falsifiers.

[mlinssen]

(3) The Gospel of Thomas (NHC 2.1) - The Greek noun μοναχός (“single one/monk”) is unattested before the 4th century but occurs multiple times in the NHL. Was this noun interpolated into the Gospel of Thomas (etc) in the 4th century? Or was the Gospel of Thomas (etc) authored in the 4th century?

(4) The Gospel of Thomas (NHC 2.1) - Why does Jesus get handed a "gold coin" in Logion 100 in relation to "Caesar's agents exacting taxes" when imperial taxation demanded payment in gold only from the rule of Diocletian and Constantine? Is this to be viewed as another 4th century interpolation into the Gospel of Thomas? Or was the Gospel of Thomas authored in the later 3rd or 4th century?

Are there any others?

You're a fool and a falsifier, Pete.

You must have missed the citations above.

In the case of (3) see:

The “Single Ones” in the Gospel of Thomas: A Monastic Perspective
René Falkenberg

• The Greek noun μοναχός (“single one/monk”) is not attested before 4th century CE. Yet it emerges in the Gospel of Thomas, usually dated to 2nd century. Building on the so-called Monastic Thesis, monks actually read and copied Thomas from 4th century onwards, and based on its attestation of ⲙⲟⲛⲁⲭⲟⲥ they seemingly changed its text too.
  https://www.academia.edu/49567245/The_S ... erspective

In the case of (4) see:

Reading Gospel of Thomas 100 in the Fourth Century
Kimberley A. Fowler
Vigiliae Christianae
Vol. 72, No. 4 (2018), pp. 421-446 (26 pages)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/26567151

• Recent scholarship has made strides in evidencing a Pachomian monastic relationship to the Nag Hammadi Codices, yet this remains to be sufficiently investigated through analysis of Nag Hammadi material bearing Pachomian traits, or best explained within a Pachomian ideological environment. In this article I argue that Gospel of Thomas 100’s redaction of the “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s” pericope (Mk 12:13-17 par.) can be better understood in light of conflict between Pachomian material wealth and ascetic aspirations. The redaction demonstrates that conflict over Roman tax payment, crucial in the first-century context of the Synoptic Gospels, is in this fourth-century context essentially irrelevant

For both (3) and (4) there are plenty more articles written by other researchers concerning these two historical allusions in Thomas. But I guess these other researchers are also fools and falsifiers.

viewtopic.php?p=146463#p146463

You know what to do Pete. Stop faffing about

[Leucius Charinus]

(6) "The All" as a technical term in the NHL appears to follow Plotinus' use in the Enneads

The term "the All" is used more than 200 times in the Enneads of Plotinus (MacKenna translation). The term is also plastered throughout many texts of the Nag Hammadi Library. To what extent might this indicate that the authors of the texts in the NHL which use the term "The All" were familiar with the Enneads of Plotinus? For instance the term occurs 22 times in the The Gospel of Truth.

Does anyone have an opinion on this?


For example some translators refer to "the All" as a "technical term".
Gospel of Thomas - BLATZ (67)
Jesus said: He who knows the all, (but) fails (to know) himself, misses everything.

• Funk and Hoover write: "This saying is as difficult to translate as it is to understand. The first clause may refer simply to one who is very knowledgeable - a know-it-all. In this case, the saying recalls the famous dictum of Socrates, 'Know thyself.' However, the word for 'all' is also a technical term in gnostic circles and refers to the whole of cosmic reality; it is usually translated as 'All,' with a capital A. Elsewhere in Thomas this term seems to carry this technical sense (note 2:4 and 77:1). The Fellows took the term here to be technical gnostic language also. They gave it a black designation as the result. Thomas 70 is a related saying." (The Five Gospels, p. 512)
  
  Gerd Ludemann gives the translation, "Jesus said, 'Whoever knows the All (but) is deficient in himself is deficient in everything.'" Ludemann writes: "The 'All' is a technical term which relates to the universe, embracing the earth and the cosmos (cf. 2.4; 77.1). 'Know' takes up the same expression from 65.4, 7. According to Thomas, knowledge of the All and self-knowledge condition each other. The reason lies in the consubstantiality of the All with the Gnostic self. Thus according to Logion 77 Jesus is the light and at the same time the All. Whoever knows himself is Christ and himself becoems a person of light." (Jesus After 2000 Years, p. 624)
  
  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... mas67.html

The All is also a primary technical term used by Plotinus.

As mentioned above, the term "the All" is used more than 200 times in the Enneads of Plotinus.

“Strive to bring back
the god in yourselves
to the God in the All”

(Life of Plotinus 2).


The All in the NHL

There appears to be a significant number of texts in the NHL that employ this term in a systematic manner. I'm not a translator but I'd say Thomas' idea about "The All" are not unique in Thomas. My question would be to ask how many of these texts were written after Porphyry published the Enneads of Plotinus. Plotinus had received imperial patronage in the later 3rd century. It follows that his literature would have been circulated by the time of the Nicene Council. By that time the Academy of Plato at Alexandria was well represented by the neo Platonists.

https://cse.google.com/cse?cof=LW%3A467 ... 2998157j11

"THE ALL"

About 78 results (0.48 seconds)


22 times in
The Gospel of Truth (Attridge & MacRae Translation) - The Nag ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › gostruth
But it is in it that I shall come to be, and (it is fitting) to be concerned at all times with the Father of the all, and the true brothers, those upon whom ...

The Apocryphon of John - Frederik Wisse - The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › apocjn
This is the first power which was before all of them (and) which came forth from his mind, She is the forethought of the All - her light shines like his ...

Trimorphic Protennoia - John D. Turner, Annotated Edition - The ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › trimorph-JDT
I am the one who gradually put forth the All by my Thought. It is I who am laden with the Voice. It is through me that Gnosis comes forth. dwell in the ...

The Book of Thomas - The Nag Hammadi Library - John D. Turner ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › bookt-jdt
For he who has not known himself has known nothing, but he who has known himself has at the same time already achieved knowledge about the depth of the all.

On the Origin of the World - Bethge and Layton - The Nag Hammadi ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › origin
The holy water, since it vivifies the all, purifies it. Out of that first blood Eros appeared, being androgynous. His masculinity is Himireris, ...

Gospel of Thomas - Patterson & Robinson Translation -- Nag ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › gth_pat_rob
(4) And he will be king over the All." (3) Jesus says: (1) "If those who lead you say to you: 'Look, the kingdom is in the sky!' then the birds of the sky ...

Gospel of Thomas (Lambdin Translation) -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › gthlamb
When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All." (3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in ...

A Valentinian Exposition -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › valex
Now this is the Root of the All and Monad without any one before him. Now the second spring exists in silence and speaks with him alone. And the Fourth ...

The Gospel of Truth (Grant Translation) - The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › got
You see, the All had been inside of him, that illimitable, inconceivable one, who is better than every thought. This ignorance of the Father brought about ...

Melchizedek -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › melchiz
holy disciples. And the Savior will reveal to them the world that gives life to the All. But those in the heavens spoke many words, together with those on ...

The Book of Thomas - The Nag Hammadi Library - John D. Turner ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › allogenes-jdt
Youel: The Barbelo Aeon. And then again, O my son Messos, the all-glorious one, Youel spoke to me; she appeared [to] me and ...

The Dialogue of the Savior -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › dialog
The Lord said, "When the Father established the cosmos for himself, he left much over from the Mother of the All. Therefore, he speaks and he acts.".

The Thought of Norea -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › nore
... behold the Pleroma, and she will not be in deficiency, for she has the four holy helpers who intercede on her behalf with the Father of the All, Adamas.

Zostrianos -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › zostr
(About) the All and the all-perfect race and the one who is higher than perfect and blessed. The self-begotten Kalyptos pre-exists because he is an origin ...

Marsanes - John Turner - Scholar's Translation - The Nag Hammadi ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › marsanes-jdt
8 The one who is 9 [substantial (Autogenes)] examines 10 [the all (the Barbelo Aeon)] and is 11 [the all and] resembles 12 [the all].

The Second Treatise of the Great Seth - Bullard & Gibbons - The ...
gnosis.org › naghamm
And she did not ask anything from the All, nor from the greatness of the Assembly, nor from the Pleroma. Since she was first, she came forth to prepare ...

The Hypostasis of the Archons - trans. Bentley Layton - The Nag ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › hypostas
From that day, the snake came to be under the curse of the authorities; until the all-powerful man was to come, that curse fell upon the snake.

Marsanes -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › marsanes
But let none of us be distressed and think in his heart that the great Father [...]. For he looks upon the All and takes care of them all. And he has shown to ...

The Tripartite Tractate -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › tripart
... is Father of the All, out of his laboring for those who exist, having sown into their thought that they might seek after him. The abundance of their [.

The Interpretation of Knowledge -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › intpr
He has a generous nature, since the Son of God dwells in him. And whenever he acquires the All, whatever he possesses will <be dissolved> in the fire because it ...

The Testimony of Truth -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › testruth
This is the perfect life, that man know himself by means of the All. Do not expect, therefore, the carnal resurrection, which is destruction; and they are ...

Zostrianos - John Turner - The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › zostr-jdt
Now as for the Entirety, both the all-perfect 3 kind and that which is higher than perfect 4 and blessed: The 5 self-generated Kalyptos 6 is a pre-existent ...

The Treatise on the Resurrection - Malcolm Peel- The Nag ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › res
But the All is what is encompassed. It has not come into being; it was existing." So, never doubt concerning the resurrection, my son Rheginos!

The Apocryphon of John - Short Version - Translated by Waldstein ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › apocjn-short
That one is the one whom the invisible Spirit appointed as god over the All, the true god. It gave to him all authority and It caused the truth which is in It ...


The Apocryphon of John - Long Version - Translated by Waldstein ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › apocjn-long
For because of the Word, Christ the divine Autogenes created the All. Eternal Life with Will, and Mind with Foreknowledge stood. They glorified the invisible ...


The Gospel of Thomas: Oxyrhynchus Fragments
gnosis.org › naghamm › thomas_poxy
When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All." Saying 3 (pOxy. 654.9-21). J[esus] said, "[If] those pulling you [say to ...