Plato and the Pentateuch

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

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Why would you propose such a thing when:

1. Gmirkin, in his writings here and elsewhere, has treated his model as what he believes;
People get married and make vows and cheat on their wives. Why? Because at some point when our bodies start to degenerate and we feel the corruption of existence we realize everything is empty. Isn't that the start of mythmaking? That instead of allowing natural phenomena to determine what truth is (i.e. who/what wins/loses) we take the seductive words of the poets as the final word? I am just saying by about thirty we lack the ability to shape greatness with our bodies. Then it's all in the head, in the mind which is lies. Let's face it if we had boxing ring and two people were pitted against one another trying to punch each other out to determine things in the realm of history it would have more meaning, more determinism than just arguing ad nauseum and appealing to people's worst angels i.e. "what they want to be true" in history.

On some level the developer of new theories lives in a world of "as if." "If this is true" then this. "If this happened" than that. It's just a game. For everyone not just Gmirkin. It's not like Russell drank a special potion that let him commune with the hidden spirit world to establish truth. It's all just a game of "as if" which really convinces no one who knows the evidence. Not just him but the inventors of all new tables of values. It's just a game to fill up time until we die and fool ourselves into believing we are new Galileos, new Columbus's discovering and exploring new realms. It's all a fake world just in the head of the individual. Boxing ring is less arbitrary. Athletics more noble. Everything that exists only in the mind is subjective. Hence someone like Neil who literary disagrees with every fundamental position of Biblical scholarship (Jesus's existence, the date of the gospels, the date of the Pentateuch). Why? Because he's dying. We're all dying. Because he figured out life is a game. Because atheists are to a large extent liberated from the concept of Truth with a capital T. It's just words. Over and over again. Bullshit words.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

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Does he really believe that the LXX is the original and not a translation? I can't believe that he believes that. It's ludicrous. Just a game. Surely the names in the LXX are translations of Hebrew names. Where did they come from? Where were they written down? It's just a game. Why did Philo and others have onomastica if the Greek text was original? Of course it's a translation and the Greek names were translations of Hebrew originals which existed in a text from before the Greek period. Just silly, silly. A silly mental game. A silly mental distraction ... from death and dying and real stuff, reality. These theories at this forum are just bullshit. No, I don't think he really believes it.

My son is going to Germany to play footballer leaving "soccer" behind. As a left winger one of his fundamental jobs is to summon the courage to take on the right back. Every time. To receive the ball. Bring it under control. Face the right back. Juke here. Fake there. Go down the line or cut in an shoot or pass. That's real. That takes balls. That's real stuff. This is just garbage. Pure nonsense with no referee no rules no reality. Just bullshit.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

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Just think of the fundament bullshit concepts. Did everyday Jews, Samaritans "Hebrews" speak Hebrew? I don't think so. They probably spoke Aramaic. So if you cut out Hebrew as a priestly language (because the Pentateuch was only invented in 270 BCE) you have the invention of Hebrew coinciding with the invention of the Pentateuch in the Hellenistic period BUT HEBREW NONETHELESS HAVING NO OVERT SIGNS OF BEING INFLUENCED BY GREEK. How is that possible? And if the argument is Hebrew was pre-existent, who was speaking it, establishing the rules of grammar to such a degree that when this "bilingual text" called the Torah came along that everyone understood how to function in Hebrew? You'd think Hebrew would have been like Esperanto, an invented language which never gets off the ground because people were busy using functional languages like Aramaic and Greek. Why would the priesthood in Samaria let's say which had no other possible Hebrew texts suddenly use a bilingual Torah IN HEBREW? Surely Greek would have been functional. They were part of a Hellenistic world. My son and I are going to have the same problem if we go to a big German city. There's going to be always the opportunity to speak English. So why learn German? It's just so silly. The priesthood had to have a Hebrew text to keep it's functionality in Hebrew alive and "prepared" for the "arrival" of the Pentateuch. What were the priests doing for almost three hundred years with their Hebrew language? Hebrew was just a spoken language? Where are all the Hebrew texts from the period before 270 BCE? It's still the same problem raised about the lack of religious texts? Surely there was "some Hebrew" books, writing. Surely it was the Torah. It's obvious. If not the Torah what text is preferable? Unless of course, as I have said many times you have NO interest in the Jews, Samaritans, Hebrews and are only interested in "fumigating" the history of the West from Jewish, Semitic "parasites"? What other reason is there for preferring this theory which doesn't help explain the origins of the Jews, the Hebrew language as much as it segregates them from contact with "white" people.
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

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Secret Alias wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:27 am It's all just a game of "as if" which really convinces no one who knows the evidence.
Why should anyone trust you about this claim, given that you have revealed both an ignorance of the evidence and a hostility to the practise of citing evidence in order to support a theory?
Last edited by ABuddhist on Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

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Russell Gmirkin wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:40 pm
StephenGoranson wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:22 am <<Nothing worth quoting>>
Stephen Goranson’s approach to my research is highly reminiscent, in my opinion, of contemporary responses to Galileo’s research in the early 1600s. You will recall, Galileo was a scientific innovator, a mathematicus who wrote a number of books regarding discoveries he made by means of telescopic observations: the mountains of the moon, the moons of Jupiter, the phases of Venus (which proved the orbit of Venus around the sun), and several others. He was an advocate of the heliocentric model of the solar system, a paradigm that ran counter to the Ptolemaic geocentric paradigm of the Catholic Church and contemporary university scholarship that held the earth to be the center of the universe. He famously had debates with his fellow scholars and with the Church, and was tried more than once by the Inquisition, who finally forced him in 1633 to renounce on pain of death his heretical scientific discoveries that ran counter to biblical teachings and Catholic doctrine, and to abstain from teaching his heliocentric views. He remained under house arrest from 1633 until his death in 1642.

His views quite obviously did not change the majority views of his contemporaries, but are now universally accepted. Why? Because they were right, and he had the evidence to prove it.

But who accepted the evidence during his lifetime? Basically, one could divide up his contemporary into two opposing camps: those who looked at his evidence, and those who did not. Kepler and other astronomers, of course, agreed with his conclusions. Jesuit astronomers, though initially skeptical and quite hostile to his scientific viewpoint, which ran counter to Church teachings, were won over, for a very simple reason: they obtained quality telescopes, they checked his observations, and confirmed that he was in fact correct.

The other group included prominent theologians, philosophers (that is, natural philosophers) and other scholars. These educated elites (or shall we say elitists) rejected his views because of their adherence to Aristotelian philosophy, Ptolemaic astronomy and Catholic doctrine. Quite famously, and not coincidentally, they adamantly refused to look through Galileo’s telescope to see for themselves the evidence he put forward in his books, despite given the opportunity. Galileo wrote about them as follows in a famous letter to Kepler:

My dear Kepler, I wish that we might laugh at the remarkable stupidity of the common herd. What do you have to say about the principal philosophers of this academy who are filled with the stubbornness of an asp and do not want to look at either the planets, the moon or the telescope, even though I have freely and deliberately offered them the opportunity a thousand times? Truly, just as the asp stops its ears, so do these philosophers shut their eyes to the light of truth.

One of Galileo’s contemporaries, the Aristotelian philosopher Cesare Cremonini of the University of Padua, after hearing of Galileo’s claim to have seen mountains on the moon, refused to look at the moon through a telescope. Later sources quoted him as saying:

I do not wish to approve of claims about which I do not have any knowledge, and about things which I have not seen … and then to observe through those glasses gives me a headache. Enough! I do not want to hear anything more about this.

One can thus trace exactly how Galileo’s opponents, including prominent academics of his day, were able to maintain their opposition to his paradigm-changing views: by refusing to view the evidence. And rejecting his dangerous theories on that basis.

Although Stephen Goranson is nowhere remotely in the same league as the scholastics and intellectuals of Galileo’s day, he resorts to the same stratagem, staunchly refusing to read the books he arrogantly claims to refute. Evidently reading a book gives him the same headache Cremonini claimed he got from looking through a telescope. I suspect tracing an academic argument from evidence to conclusion (such as I carefully present in all my books and articles) would give him a splitting migraine.

He sees himself as a defender of scholastic orthodoxy and believes that truth is measured, not by evidence and argument, but by a show of hands.

Tell me, Stephen, exactly how that model applies to the time of Galileo.

Or do you believe the sun circles the earth, based on the majority opinion of those of Galileo’s day?

Recommended reading:
Kuhn, Thomas S., The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1996.
FWIW part of the problem with Galileo is that although he was right, he claimed to have much stronger evidence for his (correct) position than in fact he had.

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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by StephenGoranson »

RE Gmirkin, during his self-comparison to Galileo (!), above, wrote, in part:
"He [that is, me, SG] sees himself as a defender of scholastic orthodoxy and believes that truth is measured, not by evidence and argument, but by a show of hands."

Actually, no, I don't believe that. I take a minority and/or new view sometimes. If I may give an example from a non-religion area of etymology (so as to be less controversial, perhaps, here.)

In professional wrestling, the word "kayfabe" means to stay in the scripted character, the character in the fake wrestling act. There are many proposed etymologies. On Feb. 28 this year, I proposed a new origin explanation to American Dialect Society list, in part:

"Maybe, okay:
kayfabe from
kay fabe from
Kay Fabe from
Kay Fabian from
Ray Fabiani (1890-1973), a promoter (and, based on a photo, a former wrestler),
a boss who insisted that the actors keep in the role as a rule.
A concert violinist before and opera manager afterwards,
he publicly objected to having known athletes from other sports being guest performers,
to keep pro wrestling purely its own act."

It's possible I'm mistaken. Historians of "wrestling" and etymologists have not weighed in.
But it may be similar to weighing, not counting, manuscripts.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

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Why should anyone trust you about this claim, given that you have revealed both an ignorance of the evidence and a hostility to the practise of citing evidence in order to support a theory?
There is apparently a lack of evidence for the Hebrew Pentateuch before the Hellenistic period. What about copies of Plato? Why is the natural conclusion that Plato "lived" and the Pentateuch was derived from Plato? Your radical atheist friend similarly concludes Jesus didn't exist or the gospels are only from the 2nd century by the same means. Why isn't it fair to assume that both existed before the end of the Persian period? Why is the answer that the Jews invented the a pre-Hellenistic Torah? Why not that the Greeks invented Plato? Why is it always the people or person we want to "cancel" is cancelled? Why not at least pick lots or have some random method of determining who didn't exist?

The same with the existence of Hebrew texts. If not the Pentateuch then what? What were the pre-Hellenistic Hebrew texts? Or are we content to treat non-European people as "barbarous" illiterate? Thankfully no one of any note has adopted this Europe über alles theory.
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

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Why would it be the natural conclusion that because there is no manuscript evidence that the text didn't exist for barbarous people but there is assuredness and certainty regarding Aryan people? Is it being argued or assumed that barbarous people have a tendency to lie or misrepresent themselves and truth than Europeans or "whites"? Why is one cultural given a pass for the lack of pre-Hellenistic manuscript evidence and the other not?
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

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Secret Alias wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:49 pm
Why should anyone trust you about this claim, given that you have revealed both an ignorance of the evidence and a hostility to the practise of citing evidence in order to support a theory?
There is apparently a lack of evidence for the Hebrew Pentateuch before the Hellenistic period. What about copies of Plato? Why is the natural conclusion that Plato "lived" and the Pentateuch was derived from Plato? Your radical atheist friend similarly concludes Jesus didn't exist or the gospels are only from the 2nd century by the same means. Why isn't it fair to assume that both existed before the end of the Persian period? Why is the answer that the Jews invented the a pre-Hellenistic Torah? Why not that the Greeks invented Plato? Why is it always the people or person we want to "cancel" is cancelled? Why not at least pick lots or have some random method of determining who didn't exist?

The same with the existence of Hebrew texts. If not the Pentateuch then what? What were the pre-Hellenistic Hebrew texts? Or are we content to treat non-European people as "barbarous" illiterate? Thankfully no one of any note has adopted this Europe über alles theory.
Although I am no expert about Plato, I must say, from off hand, that we have multiple written sources from known people with known intentions and known dates whose testimony allows us to reconstruct what Plato wrote, when, where, and in response to which events. We have no similar sources about the Pentateuch - only legends from later centuries and scholars' reconstructions from later millenia.

PreHellenistic Hebrew texts have been found in archaeological excavations in Israel. But you seem to ignore such evidence when it does not support your theories.

I am, I must note, as opposed to Eurocentrism as you are. The Mozi, from China, is an underappreciated masterpiece from the 4th century BCE, to say nothing of the Buddhist scriptures, which claim to chronicle events from the 5th century BCE.
Last edited by ABuddhist on Sat Mar 18, 2023 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

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There are no manuscripts of Plato discovered from before the period 270 BCE. The oldest copies of Plato we have are from the third century CE. As such the business about "the Torah only being invented by 270 BCE because there are no manuscripts from before 270 BCE - if someone was as obtuse as those who support this theory - could be turned around "maybe Plato never existed. Maybe his manuscripts were invented to save face for the Greeks who discovered all these amazing written texts from foreign cultures and had to invent a culture of their own with the founding of the library at Alexandria. They invented Plato in order give them a cultural identity stealing from the Egyptians and Babylonians. Just saying. It's not like only Hebrew manuscripts don't exist from pre-270 BCE. Plato too. So what's with the "white people are more reliable than Semites" assumption? Why can't, all things being equal, the Greek have "invented" Plato, that Plato was a "myth" and one of the sources to create this "Plato myth" was the much older manuscripts like the Pentateuch?
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