From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
davidmartin
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Re: From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave

Post by davidmartin »

Interesting what you write ML. Your theory is similar to what I've been seeing. Maybe we see the same thing but 2 people will not agree on what they see sometimes, cause i know we disagree at times, but anyway i think i support your thesis in its general approach if not every conclusion.

Your 'Chrestianity' is what i call the original movement. You call it anti-Judaic. Yeah, to the outward crap of religion it probably was, but to me that's not anti-Judaic, its not really anti- anything, it's pro-esoteric, the anti is just a byproduct of being pro-esoteric, it's just the way it is. this anti-exoteric gets ramped up in the gospels to actual anti-Judaism sometimes (usually the 'narrators voice' of redaction) because it suited the early orthodoxy to have their Jesus bash Judaism (just as much as it suited them for him to appear pro-Judaic. Contradiction? Yes, but useful, something for every occasion) There is more anti-Judaic stuff in the NT than the gnostic texts if you ask me

I think the apostle was a prime reason what you call 'Christianity' emerged, he meddled with the formula. I don't believe so-called 'pillars' story of a pro-religious James one bit. That looks like an offshoot not the original and the apostle is trying his sales pitch on them too

where we disagree probably is i see the original movement as a restorationist one, trying to restore or reform the religion around them into something better, and back the way it was prior to the corruption, ie the Odes but i dont know if you will ever accept the Odes i hope you do one day, cause i think you're missing something there. show me where in the Odes there is anything exoteric
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mlinssen
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Re: From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave

Post by mlinssen »

davidmartin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:22 pm Interesting what you write ML. Your theory is similar to what I've been seeing. Maybe we see the same thing but 2 people will not agree on what they see sometimes, cause i know we disagree at times, but anyway i think i support your thesis in its general approach if not every conclusion.

Your 'Chrestianity' is what i call the original movement.
Check
You call it anti-Judaic. Yeah, to the outward crap of religion it probably was, but to me that's not anti-Judaic, its not really anti- anything, it's pro-esoteric, the anti is just a byproduct of being pro-esoteric, it's just the way it is.
I hear you, so yes and no. Yes it was anti-religious, and THE religion to them was Judaism, so it is naturally that one that takes the brunt. It's not like they roamed the earth, evaluated all religions, and decided to pick on Judaism alone
this anti-exoteric gets ramped up in the gospels to actual anti-Judaism sometimes (usually the 'narrators voice' of redaction) because it suited the early orthodoxy to have their Jesus bash Judaism (just as much as it suited them for him to appear pro-Judaic. Contradiction? Yes, but useful, something for every occasion) There is more anti-Judaic stuff in the NT than the gnostic texts if you ask me
Check!
I think the apostle was a prime reason what you call 'Christianity' emerged, he meddled with the formula. I don't believe so-called 'pillars' story of a pro-religious James one bit. That looks like an offshoot not the original and the apostle is trying his sales pitch on them too
We need motive above all. Looking at the NT, it is unavoidable to see the hand of careless Romans in the crooked Koine, the bad Judaism, the impossible locations, the many Roman loanwords. The anti-Judaism of the "Gnostics" (stick to one label please!) mostly remained but got deflected onto the Pharisees, and the pro-Judaism introduced. I am doing a very long paper solely on logion 47, which is my largest nuclear bomb so far, and there really was very vile anti-Judaism in Chrestianity in all sorts of subtleties
where we disagree probably is i see the original movement as a restorationist one, trying to restore or reform the religion around them into something better, and back the way it was prior to the corruption, ie the Odes but i dont know if you will ever accept the Odes i hope you do one day, cause i think you're missing something there. show me where in the Odes there is anything exoteric
I wish I could read the original Odes David, untainted. Uncoloured, unpainted, unbiased, uninterpreted.
You know, pretty much like my translation where you can simply click when you doubt a word

A really "useful" translation, yeah. Some may call it majestic, unprecedented, unsurpassable, unmatchable, a solid 10 - but not Ken (LOL)

I can hand you my Excel source, although I know it is problematic for right-to-left writing, but it will automatically give you all: a perfect Concordance for free, an index as well, and both in reverse too

I agree to the general concept of anointing in the Tanakh david - from a great distance. But its application in the context of a Messiah? That word isn't even present , unless you look at John
davidmartin
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Re: From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave

Post by davidmartin »

i think all the anti-jewish racial elements were done in 2nd century by the orthodox christian redactors (gentiles). the original movement didn't have that stuff. for motives that apostle, his gospel is incompatible with judaism i recon he played a large part in people pissing each other off. i suspect before him yeah there was tension but he made it a lot worse, basically because he said either you believe me or you are deceived.. binary, no hope of compromise
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mlinssen
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Re: From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave

Post by mlinssen »

Just a sample of what a real translation can do.
Parable of the wine and the patch, canonicals.

Before:

Mark 2:22 No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on old clothing. Otherwise the patch tears away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear takes place.

Luke 5:36 And He was speaking also a parable to them: “No one having torn a piece of a new garment, puts [it] on an old garment; but if otherwise, he will tear the new also, and the old will not match [the] piece which [is] of the new.

Matthew 9:16 But no one puts a patch of unshrunk cloth on old clothing, for the filling up of it tears away from the garment, and a worse tear emerges.

After:

Mark 2:22 No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on old garment; otherwise the filling up tears away from it, the fresh from the old, and a worse split takes place.

Luke 5:36 And He was speaking also a parable to them: “No one having split a patch of a fresh garment, casts [it] on an old garment; otherwise he will split the fresh also, and the patch of the fresh will not match the old.

Matthew 9:16 But no one casts a patch of unshrunk cloth on old garment, for the filling up of it tears away from the garment, and a worse split emerges.

I have done nothign but to use the same English for the same Greek, and vice versa
davidmartin
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Re: From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave

Post by davidmartin »

a solid 10 Ken? that's Barbie's boyfriend level, but Shaggy was going out with Daphne, not Fred! A 5 is good enough for me, that's all i'm gonna say on translations cause its too personal to discuss!
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mlinssen
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Re: From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave

Post by mlinssen »

davidmartin wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:46 am a solid 10 Ken? that's Barbie's boyfriend level, but Shaggy was going out with Daphne, not Fred! A 5 is good enough for me, that's all i'm gonna say on translations cause its too personal to discuss!
Let's agree to vehemently disagree on this matter david: a translation of a public text must under all circumstances be fully public, transparent, verifiable, traceable - and if you want to make a personal one, then keep it personal, and completely to yourself

Having said that, the foreward :cheeky: makes it clear that this is a very coloured translation, when reading between the lines.
Fine by me really, I have enough figures to pick

Any Coptic in there by the way? I've understood the extant MSS to be a mixed bag of mostly Syriac with a bit of Coptic, and a fragment of Greek on the side?
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