Plato and the Pentateuch

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by StephenGoranson »

RE Gmirkin, during his self-comparison to Galileo (!), above, wrote, in part:
"He [that is, me, SG] sees himself as a defender of scholastic orthodoxy and believes that truth is measured, not by evidence and argument, but by a show of hands."

Actually, no, I don't believe that. I take a minority and/or new view sometimes. If I may give an example from a non-religion area of etymology (so as to be less controversial, perhaps, here.)

In professional wrestling, the word "kayfabe" means to stay in the scripted character, the character in the fake wrestling act. There are many proposed etymologies. On Feb. 28 this year, I proposed a new origin explanation to American Dialect Society list, in part:

"Maybe, okay:
kayfabe from
kay fabe from
Kay Fabe from
Kay Fabian from
Ray Fabiani (1890-1973), a promoter (and, based on a photo, a former wrestler),
a boss who insisted that the actors keep in the role as a rule.
A concert violinist before and opera manager afterwards,
he publicly objected to having known athletes from other sports being guest performers,
to keep pro wrestling purely its own act."

It's possible I'm mistaken. Historians of "wrestling" and etymologists have not weighed in.
But it may be similar to weighing, not counting, manuscripts.
Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias »

Why should anyone trust you about this claim, given that you have revealed both an ignorance of the evidence and a hostility to the practise of citing evidence in order to support a theory?
There is apparently a lack of evidence for the Hebrew Pentateuch before the Hellenistic period. What about copies of Plato? Why is the natural conclusion that Plato "lived" and the Pentateuch was derived from Plato? Your radical atheist friend similarly concludes Jesus didn't exist or the gospels are only from the 2nd century by the same means. Why isn't it fair to assume that both existed before the end of the Persian period? Why is the answer that the Jews invented the a pre-Hellenistic Torah? Why not that the Greeks invented Plato? Why is it always the people or person we want to "cancel" is cancelled? Why not at least pick lots or have some random method of determining who didn't exist?

The same with the existence of Hebrew texts. If not the Pentateuch then what? What were the pre-Hellenistic Hebrew texts? Or are we content to treat non-European people as "barbarous" illiterate? Thankfully no one of any note has adopted this Europe über alles theory.
ABuddhist
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by ABuddhist »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:49 pm
Why should anyone trust you about this claim, given that you have revealed both an ignorance of the evidence and a hostility to the practise of citing evidence in order to support a theory?
There is apparently a lack of evidence for the Hebrew Pentateuch before the Hellenistic period. What about copies of Plato? Why is the natural conclusion that Plato "lived" and the Pentateuch was derived from Plato? Your radical atheist friend similarly concludes Jesus didn't exist or the gospels are only from the 2nd century by the same means. Why isn't it fair to assume that both existed before the end of the Persian period? Why is the answer that the Jews invented the a pre-Hellenistic Torah? Why not that the Greeks invented Plato? Why is it always the people or person we want to "cancel" is cancelled? Why not at least pick lots or have some random method of determining who didn't exist?

The same with the existence of Hebrew texts. If not the Pentateuch then what? What were the pre-Hellenistic Hebrew texts? Or are we content to treat non-European people as "barbarous" illiterate? Thankfully no one of any note has adopted this Europe über alles theory.
Although I am no expert about Plato, I must say, from off hand, that we have multiple written sources from known people with known intentions and known dates whose testimony allows us to reconstruct what Plato wrote, when, where, and in response to which events. We have no similar sources about the Pentateuch - only legends from later centuries and scholars' reconstructions from later millenia.

PreHellenistic Hebrew texts have been found in archaeological excavations in Israel. But you seem to ignore such evidence when it does not support your theories.

I am, I must note, as opposed to Eurocentrism as you are. The Mozi, from China, is an underappreciated masterpiece from the 4th century BCE, to say nothing of the Buddhist scriptures, which claim to chronicle events from the 5th century BCE.
Last edited by ABuddhist on Sat Mar 18, 2023 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias »

There are no manuscripts of Plato discovered from before the period 270 BCE. The oldest copies of Plato we have are from the third century CE. As such the business about "the Torah only being invented by 270 BCE because there are no manuscripts from before 270 BCE - if someone was as obtuse as those who support this theory - could be turned around "maybe Plato never existed. Maybe his manuscripts were invented to save face for the Greeks who discovered all these amazing written texts from foreign cultures and had to invent a culture of their own with the founding of the library at Alexandria. They invented Plato in order give them a cultural identity stealing from the Egyptians and Babylonians. Just saying. It's not like only Hebrew manuscripts don't exist from pre-270 BCE. Plato too. So what's with the "white people are more reliable than Semites" assumption? Why can't, all things being equal, the Greek have "invented" Plato, that Plato was a "myth" and one of the sources to create this "Plato myth" was the much older manuscripts like the Pentateuch?
StephenGoranson
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by StephenGoranson »

A saying (with variations) attributed (maybe truly, though I don't have absolute proof) to Linus Pauling (or maybe Thomas Edison) is, in any case:
"The best way to have a good idea is to have a lot of ideas and throw away the bad ones."

A couple questions:
To RE Gmirkin. You have written, and as recorded elsewhere, that your Father served in the Central Intelligence Agency. What I wonder, if you care to say, is whether knowing something of his work experience influenced your view of Plato and the Pentateuch.

To ABuddhist. If you care to say, what do you consider Buddhist teaching vis-a-vis anonymity and autism? (By the way, have you seen the fictional tv show, in French but with subtitles available, "Astrid," whose title character is excellent at solving puzzles?)
ABuddhist
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by ABuddhist »

StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:53 am To ABuddhist. If you care to say, what do you consider Buddhist teaching vis-a-vis anonymity and autism? (By the way, have you seen the fictional tv show, in French but with subtitles available, "Astrid," whose title character is excellent at solving puzzles?)
In this forum, I am not anonymous but pseudonymous. There is a difference. Thedre is a tradition of Buddhists, even those greater than I am - who are many, it must be admitted - using generic titles instead of their proper names. For example, the founder of Geluk Buddhism is commonly known as Tsongkhapa, litrerally meaning, "the man from Onion Valley".

If "Astrid" were fictional, then I could not watch it. Rather, Astrid is fictitious. There is a difference.

As for Buddhist teachings about autism, there is the book, "Autism and Buddhist Practice: How Buddhism Can Help Autistic Adults Cultivate Wellbeing", by Chris Jarrell.

Why are you asking these questions to me? I assume that you were not meaning to reveal your imprecise language, but were meaning to set up some ground for insult me, although I hope that I am wrong.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by neilgodfrey »

ABuddhist wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 2:10 pm If I were not fearing to be stained in my reputatation by my common practices with you and StephenGoranson, I would be offering considerably more pointed criticisms of Gmirkin's ideas than the 1 which I have given.
This indeed is the consequence, one might even suspect intention, of the likes of a proudly self-professed "dumb" "anti-intellectual" and a dishonest bigot, both of whom refuse point blank to actually read the works they are criticizing, -- to shut down discussion. They have not advanced the discussion for which this thread was initiated, not even by means of honest criticism. (I gave up trying to engage with SA when it became obvious he was either not even reading my responses to his queries or else incapable of basic comprehension of thoughts that were new to him.) Their every effort, from what I bothered to read, was to ridicule and insult and dishonestly or ignorantly misrepresent.

I posted some time back how this agenda -- misrepresentation and smear -- is designed to intimidate would-be interested students and peers from even reading, certainly not discussing openly, certain ideas. https://vridar.org/2010/10/27/the-tacti ... -p-lemche/

I have asked them to stop their ad hominem attacks, to no avail. I have asked them to avoid posting while they have no serious contribution to the discussion based on an honest reading of some aspect of it, again to no avail. They only want to troll in order to shut down discussion of ideas they do not like, including questions about their own assumptions that they cannot tolerate.
Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias »

So please answer the hitherto unanswered question. As someone who believes that Jesus didn't exist and the reports about him were all made up why is it "obvious" that with neither the Pentateuch nor the writings of Plato surviving before 270 BCE that the Jewish writings were dependent on Plato and not the other way around? I mean, you don't think the gospels testify to the historical existence of Jesus. Most of them come from the second century. But the writings of Plato date from the 3rd century CE. The fragments from Qumran near the 270 BCE "historical marker" Gmirkin set up. Why are you so sure that Plato's writings existed pre-270 BCE but not the Jewish writings? Again, what else but racism or a cultural prejudice against "barbarous people" that makes you so certain that the white people are better and more reliable witness than Semitic people? Why is it more reasonable to assume Jews borrowed from Platonic texts that only survive from the 3rd century CE than the Greeks jealous of the literature of barbarous people invented Plato? I don't get this "choice" when the Jewish writings that survive down to us are almost 500 years older than Plato.

Of course I think BOTH Plato and the Pentateuch were pre-270 BCE. But that's not the point. The business about no Jewish writings from pre-270 BCE is a red herring, it doesn't mean what you want it to mean i.e. proof of the non-existence of Judaism. But likeminded "haters" will ignore the historical context to glean from it "proof" that Judaism never existed. If that's the standard Plato never existed. The Republic never existed. Such bullshit.
Secret Alias
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias »

I think there are only 2 people supporting this Gmirkin case at this forum. ABuddhist isn't a third person to the Neil + Russell defensive wall for this theory. Just saying. Someone doesn't want to be recognized to be helping the cause.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Plato and the Pentateuch

Post by StephenGoranson »

The "pseudonymous" ABuddhist says he has "considerably more pointed criticisms of Gmirkin's ideas than the 1 which I have given," but will not tell them because of his (pseudonymous) "reputation."

(And NG makes ad hominems right before condemning ad hominems.)
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