Chrestians/Christians?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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mlinssen
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by mlinssen »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 2:27 am The "nuff said" seems practically impossible to interpret and kind of refutes itself. And it necessitates the previous paragraph because enough was not said.
Oh Peter, and a jolly good morning to you too.
You evidently read an awful lot more in "nuff said" than I intended to convey

Have a coffee, smile, and relax. I'm into Ousanas now, do check the link that I added to my previous post, and before the day is over we'll have the proper stone and photographs - after which I will say more than "nuff said" which hardly could have been interpreted along the lines of "see I told you it was fake / bogus / blahblahblah"

I'm perfectly alright with anyone converting to Christianity in 350 CE, especially in countries like Ethiopia that form part of the true treasures of Christian origins

:kiss:
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mlinssen
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by mlinssen »

So far, so alright - it's another one

I think I really have to go French
EzanaChristianStele.jpeg
EzanaChristianStele.jpeg (581.34 KiB) Viewed 819495 times
https://www.persee.fr/doc/jds_0021-8103 ... m_4_1_1235 is the French article about the Christian one
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by mlinssen »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 2:27 am It is different. The inscription with the Christian stuff was first published in 1970, in the French article I cited poorly above (F. Anfray, "Une nouvelle inscription grecque d'Ezana, roi d'Axoum," Journal des savants, 1970, n°4. pp. 260-274). Before then, there was no unambiguous inscription from this king that referred to Christian stuff. The previously known inscription that was much discussed used a much more ambiguous "Lord of Heaven" phrase. (An article I read says that this is because Christianity was adopted from the top down and the king didn't want to offend popular religious sensibilities.)

I would like to see the inscription itself, but so far the closest I've seen is the 1970 article's transcription of the Greek.

The original article should have a photograph, but the online copy of the article I accessed didn't have it.
All quoted from:

https://08604187992859800386.googlegrou ... 0Aksum.pdf

I have saved the BOX for the inscription

DAE 11. Vocalised Ge`ez.

The `monotheistic' inscription; there have been many speculations about the form of the dedication of this inscription, some authors attributing it to a monotheism not specifically Christian. This complication seems unnecessary when what seem to be the Greek and South Arabian script versions (below) are considered. It may rather reflect an uncertainty as to how to refer to the Christian god in the earliest Christian period of the country.

The Noba and Kasu Campaign. By the might of the Lord of Heaven who in the sky and on earth holds power over all beings, Ezana, son of Ella Amida, Bisi Halen, king of Aksum, Himyar, Raydan, Saba, Salhin, Tsiyamo, Beja and of Kasu, king of kings, son of Ella Amida, never defeated by the enemy. May the might of the Lord of Heaven, who has made me king, who reigns for all eternity, invincible, cause that no enemy can resist me, that no enemy may follow me! By the might of the Lord of All I campaigned against the Noba when the Noba peoples revolted and boasted. `They will not dare to cross the Takaze' said the Noba people.
When they had oppressed the Mangurto, Hasa and Barya peoples, and when the blacks fought the red people and they broke their word for the second and third times and put their neighbours to death without mercy, and pillaged our messengers and the envoys whom I sent to them to admonish them, and they plundered them of what they had including their lances; when finally, having sent new messengers to whom they did not wish to listen but replied by refusals, scorn, and evil acts; then I took the field.
I set forth by the might of the Lord of the Land and I fought at the Takaze and the ford Kemalke. Here I put them to flight, and, not resting, I followed those who fled for twenty-three days during which I killed some everywhere they halted. I made prisoners of others and took booty from them. At the same time those of my people who were in the field brought back captives and booty. At the same time I burnt their villages, both those with walls of stone and those of straw.
My people took their cereals, bronze, iron and copper and overthrew the idols in their dwellings, as well as their corn and cotton, and threw them themselves into the river Seda (Blue Nile). Many lost their lives in the river, no-one knows the number. At the same time my people pierced and sank their boats which carried a crowd of men and women.
And I captured two notables who had come as spies, mounted on camels, by name Yesaka and Butala, and the chief Angabene. The following nobles were put to death: Danoko, Dagale, Anako, Haware. The soldiers had wounded Karkara, their priest, and took from him a necklace of silver and a golden box. Thus five nobles and a priest fell. I arrived at the Kasu, fought them and took them prisoner at the confluence of the rivers Seda and Takaze. And the day after my arrival I sent into the field the columns Mahaza, Hara, Damawa? Falha? and Sera? along the Seda going up to their cities with walls of stone and of straw; their cities with walls of stone are Alwa and Daro.
And my troops killed and took prisoners and threw them into the water and they returned home safe and sound after terrifying their enemies and vanquishing them thanks to the power of the Lord of the Land. Next, I sent the columns of Halen, Laken? Sabarat, Falha and Sera along the Seda, going down towards the four towns of straw of the Noba and the town of Negus. The towns of the Kasu with walls of stone which the Noba had taken were Tabito(?), Fertoti; and the troops penetrated to the territory of the Red Noba and my peoples returned safe after taking prisoners and booty, and killing by the might of the Lord of Heaven.
And I erected a throne at the confluence of the rivers Seda and Takaze opposite the town with walls of stone which rises on this peninsula. And behold what the Lord of Heaven has given me; prisoners, 214 men, 415 women, total 629; killed, 602 men, 156 women and children, total 758, and adding the prisoners and killed 1,387. The booty came to 10,560 head of cattle and 51,050 sheep. And I set up a throne here in Shado by the might of the Lord of Heaven who has helped me and given me supremacy. May the Lord of Heaven reinforce my reign. And, as he has now defeated my enemies for me, may he continue to do so wherever I go. As he has now conquered for me, and has submitted my enemies to me, I wish to reign in justice and equity, without doing any injustice to my peoples. And I put this throne which I have raised under the protection of the Lord of Heaven, who has made me king, and that of the Earth (Meder) which bears it.
And if anyone is found to root it up, deface it or displace it, let him and his race be rooted up and extirpated. They shall be cast out of the country.
And I have raised this throne by the power of the Lord of Heaven.

Christian Inscription of Ezana. Greek. (Anfray, Caquot and Nautin 1970; Judge 1976).

This appears to be the beginning of the Greek version of the above inscription DAE 11. If these were somehow arranged on a stone throne, the rest may have continued on another part. On the reverse is the South Arabian script version (below).

In the faith of God and the power of the Father, son and Holy Spirit who saved for me the kingdom, by the faith of his son Jesus Christ, who has helped me and will always help me. I Azanas king of the Aksumites, and Himyarites, and Reeidan and of the Sabaeans and of Sileel and of Khaso and of the Beja and of Tiamo, Bisi Alene, son of Ella Amida servant of Christ thank the Lord my God, and I am unable to state fully his favours because my mouth and my mind cannot (embrace) all the favours which he has given me, for he has given me strength and power and favoured me with a great name through his son in whom I believed. And he made me the guide of all my kingdom because of my faith in Christ by his will and in the power of Christ, for he has guided me. And I believe in him and he became to me a guide. I went out to fight the Noba because there cried out against them, the Mangartho and Khasa and Atiaditai and Bareotai saying that `the Noba have ground us down; help us because they have troubled us by killing'. And I left by the power of Christ the God in whom I have believed and he has guided me and I departed from Aksum on the eighth day, a Saturday, of the Aksumite month of Magabit having faith in God and arrived in Mambarya and there I fed my army.

Inscription in South Arabian script.

This appears to be the third version of the DAE 11 text, and is important in that it ends (on one of the sides) with a cross, similar to that found on the coins attributed to this period just after the conversion of Ezana. It lacks a name, but the content and style allowed Schneider (1974, 1976) to suggest the attribution. His suggestion is backed up by the fact that this inscription is on the back and one side of the Greek version, which stops at a higher level, where it is supposed that the seat on the throne on which it was inscribed intervened.
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by mlinssen »

And the odd thing seems to be that the French article suggests that the Christ stuff is in Arabic whereas the Lord of Heaven stuff is in Greek - yet I've seen the Greek with Christ, so I'm lost

Or maybe I'm still in holiday mode, could well be
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by mlinssen »

mlinssen wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 11:39 pm I have found quite a different transcription - plus photograph - in German. Screenshot, can't copy:

Deutsche Aksum-Expedition: Sabaische, griechische und altabessinische Inschriften, Volume 4 - Enno Littmann

https://archive.org/details/SabaischeGr ... nschriften

Image

I think this is another inscription from the one you have provided. I'll whip out the laptop later today

Also, do observe page 12 of that book, it contains 3 versions of the similar inscription - in language and semantics that we would expect, naming spoils and such. My first impression is that these are earlier for sure
Well, at least these two belong together. The Transcription above goes with the Greek stele below:

Image
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by Peter Kirby »

mlinssen wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 2:51 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 2:27 am The "nuff said" seems practically impossible to interpret and kind of refutes itself. And it necessitates the previous paragraph because enough was not said.
Oh Peter, and a jolly good morning to you too.
You evidently read an awful lot more in "nuff said" than I intended to convey

Have a coffee, smile, and relax. I'm into Ousanas now, do check the link that I added to my previous post, and before the day is over we'll have the proper stone and photographs - after which I will say more than "nuff said" which hardly could have been interpreted along the lines of "see I told you it was fake / bogus / blahblahblah"

I'm perfectly alright with anyone converting to Christianity in 350 CE, especially in countries like Ethiopia that form part of the true treasures of Christian origins
Good morning.

I told you only that it was impossible to interpret. And it is entirely you now who are reading into me things not there at all.
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by mlinssen »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 9:34 am
mlinssen wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 2:51 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 2:27 am The "nuff said" seems practically impossible to interpret and kind of refutes itself. And it necessitates the previous paragraph because enough was not said.
Oh Peter, and a jolly good morning to you too.
You evidently read an awful lot more in "nuff said" than I intended to convey

Have a coffee, smile, and relax. I'm into Ousanas now, do check the link that I added to my previous post, and before the day is over we'll have the proper stone and photographs - after which I will say more than "nuff said" which hardly could have been interpreted along the lines of "see I told you it was fake / bogus / blahblahblah"

I'm perfectly alright with anyone converting to Christianity in 350 CE, especially in countries like Ethiopia that form part of the true treasures of Christian origins
Good morning.

I told you only that it was impossible to interpret. And it is entirely you now who are reading into me things not there at all.
Granted
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by Peter Kirby »

mlinssen wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 2:51 am I'm into Ousanas now, do check the link that I added to my previous post, and before the day is over we'll have the proper stone and photographs
Looking forward to it!

The linked PDF has no photos of the inscription that I can see. It has this.
Christian Inscription of Ezana. Greek. (Anfray, Caquot and Nautin 1970; Judge 1976).

This appears to be the beginning of the Greek version of the above inscription DAE 11. If
these were somehow arranged on a stone throne, the rest may have continued on another
part. On the reverse is the South Arabian script version (below).

In the faith of God and the power of the Father, son and Holy Spirit who saved for me the
kingdom, by the faith of his son Jesus Christ, who has helped me and will always help me.
I Azanas king of the Aksumites, and Himyarites, and Reeidan and of the Sabaeans and of
Sileel and of Khaso and of the Beja and of Tiamo, Bisi Alene, son of Ella Amida servant
of Christ thank the Lord my God, and I am unable to state fully his favours because my
mouth and my mind cannot (embrace) all the favours which he has given me, for he has
given me strength and power and favoured me with a great name through his son in
whom I believed. And he made me the guide of all my kingdom because of my faith in
Christ by his will and in the power of Christ, for he has guided me. And I believe in him
and he became to me a guide. I went out to fight the Noba because there cried out against
them, the Mangartho and Khasa and Atiaditai and Bareotai saying that `the Noba have
ground us down; help us because they have troubled us by killing'. And I left by the
power of Christ the God in whom I have believed and he has guided me and I departed
from Aksum on the eighth day, a Saturday, of the Aksumite month of Magabit having faith
in God and arrived in Mambarya and there I fed my army.

Inscription in South Arabian script.

This appears to be the third version of the DAE 11 text, and is important in that it ends
(on one of the sides) with a cross, similar to that found on the coins attributed to this
period just after the conversion of Ezana. It lacks a name, but the content and style
allowed Schneider (1974, 1976) to suggest the attribution. His suggestion is backed up by
the fact that this inscription is on the back and one side of the Greek version, which stops
at a higher level, where it is supposed that the seat on the throne on which it was
inscribed intervened.
The 1970 article from Anfray et al. should have the photo.
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by Secret Alias »

This should also be in your 275 CE to 325 CE thread. Imagine for a moment 325 CE in Nicaea and 350 CE in this far away country. How is this possible that Christianity was "invented" in 325 CE? Why would a far away kingdom have converted to a new religion THIS FAR AWAY from the alleged "starting point" of Christianity?

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