Data Science and the Gospels

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
vocesanticae
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by vocesanticae »

Peter Kirby wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 2:51 pm
Irish1975 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:43 am Now why can’t the scholarly world produce a readable bilingual anthology of all the Marcionite source material? People will always want to read and judge for themselves.
Ben Smith's threads here have been enduringly useful:

The Marcionite epistles with accompanying sources
viewtopic.php?t=1837

The Marcionite gospel with accompanying sources
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765
Thank you for reminding us about this resource. My main concern with the work is how muddled it is, both in terms of reconstruction and in terms of presentation. To me, it obscures far more than it clarifies.

Comparing it with Vinzent's edition reinforces for me how much this new Greek edition of the Apostolos is going to be a game-changer, because his restoration is precise down to each word, based on meticulous counts of every single lemma, as well as various morphological forms, all in the effort to build a vocal stratum based on clearly attested passages within both the Apostolos and Evangelion, noting radical differences in word frequencies with the canonical versions, then extrapolating from these patterns to make word by word decisions on the less clear or highly ambiguous materials. His approach is quite similar to what I've been attempting to do with the Evangelion in my progressive reconstruction over the last 2.5 years, establishing underlying vocal patterns based on respective frequencies of a wide array of features, including lemmata, syntagmata, topics, sentiments, perspective, etc.

Vinzent's work will also be a game-changer in terms of usability and impact, because he sets the Apostolos in parallel columns with the canonical counterparts, allowing for highly effective and informative comparison without obscuring the actual Marcionite text.

His knowledge of the Paul manuscripts, quantitative assessments of their proximity to the Apostolos text, and deep awareness of the breadth of scholarship on the text over the last 200 years is also extremely impressive. Every restoration decision is made in careful consultation with a large cloud of scholarly witnesses.

If we can imagine Vinzent as a painter, then his Apostolos will be considered a masterpiece by George Seurat.
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mlinssen
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by mlinssen »

Irish1975 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:37 pm BeDuhn translates it correctly, but either Ben or Roth fudges it. The parentheses remind me of those footnotes in the NRSV that tell the reader what is actually in the Greek although they bowderlize the main text.
Ben also managed to restore the wineskin and patch in the reverse - canonical - order even though Roth has no restoration at all (while using Greek words to indicate that the order indeed is reverse!) and BeDuhn has a full restoration - in the right order

According to his OP
This thread, then, is a reconstruction of sorts, based primarily on the work of Dieter T. Roth and secondarily on the work of Jason BeDuhn
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by Peter Kirby »

vocesanticae wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:15 pmComparing it with Vinzent's edition reinforces for me how much this new Greek edition of the Apostolos is going to be a game-changer
Referring to this, I suppose: http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/2022/ ... cions.html
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Irish1975
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by Irish1975 »

mlinssen wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:40 pm
Irish1975 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:37 pm BeDuhn translates it correctly, but either Ben or Roth fudges it. The parentheses remind me of those footnotes in the NRSV that tell the reader what is actually in the Greek although they bowderlize the main text.
Ben also managed to restore the wineskin and patch in the reverse - canonical - order even though Roth has no restoration at all (while using Greek words to indicate that the order indeed is reverse!) and BeDuhn has a full restoration - in the right order

According to his OP
This thread, then, is a reconstruction of sorts, based primarily on the work of Dieter T. Roth and secondarily on the work of Jason BeDuhn
It’s nice to have that dual language Epiphanius, but these are serious errors. Without notes, there isn’t any clarity about his decisions. Blending (only) two reconstructions is a problem in itself.

I don’t trust Roth. BeDuhn is precise and honest with the source work, although I think a lot of his arguments in the 2013 book are problematic; in some places, fallacious.

I am excited to see his second edition, though, and the Vinzent book that Bilby is talking about.
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Irish1975
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by Irish1975 »

Peter Kirby wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 4:44 pm
Irish1975 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:37 pmThere are plenty of sources that Roth or BeDuhn or whoever haven’t worked into their reconstructions.
Which ones do you have in mind?
All the stuff from Origen, Jerome, Ephrem, etc. All the testimonies that address Marcion and Marcionites one way or another. Wouldn’t that be a nice volume to have? As it is, everything is scattered and a pain to look up.
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by mlinssen »

Irish1975 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:05 pm
mlinssen wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:40 pm
Irish1975 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:37 pm BeDuhn translates it correctly, but either Ben or Roth fudges it. The parentheses remind me of those footnotes in the NRSV that tell the reader what is actually in the Greek although they bowderlize the main text.
Ben also managed to restore the wineskin and patch in the reverse - canonical - order even though Roth has no restoration at all (while using Greek words to indicate that the order indeed is reverse!) and BeDuhn has a full restoration - in the right order

According to his OP
This thread, then, is a reconstruction of sorts, based primarily on the work of Dieter T. Roth and secondarily on the work of Jason BeDuhn
It’s nice to have that dual language Epiphanius, but these are serious errors. Without notes, there isn’t any clarity about his decisions. Blending (only) two reconstructions is a problem in itself.

I don’t trust Roth. BeDuhn is precise and honest with the source work, although I think a lot of his arguments in the 2013 book are problematic; in some places, fallacious.

I am excited to see his second edition, though, and the Vinzent book that Bilby is talking about.
"And it is striking that Roth also neglects to comment (page 186-187) on the fact that the order of *Ev’s text perfectly allows for Luke 4:23 (“do as you did in Capernaum”) whereas Luke’s Jesus hasn’t even been to Capernaum at that point – whereas *Ev starts his very text with it. BeDuhn (page 85) labels that ‘the notorious anachronism of Jesus referring to deeds he had done in Capharnaum at a point in the narrative before he has gone to Capharnaum’ and it has become clear by now that Roth isn’t a particularly objective or reliable source for the reconstruction of Marcion."

https://www.academia.edu/s/ce0ab7db5b page 4
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by maryhelena »

vocesanticae wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 2:41 pm
gryan wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:56 am Dear Dr. Bilby,

According to you, 30 percent of the writings attributed to Paul are authentic. Do I understand you correctly? Could you please elaborate on this. Are there specific characteristics of this 30% authentic Paul?
I tend to think the 30% still preserves the ipsissima verba of the historical Paul and (like BeDuhn, see "Myth of Marcion as Redactor", and like Klinghardt also) see Marcion as more a passive compiler rather than a heavy-handed editor, as is also the case with the Evangelion. Vinzent leans more on the side of Marcion taking a much more active role in filtering and re-writing earlier texts from a "stock" of Paul's letters in circulation. It will be interesting to see where the data science leads us.

Vinzent's forthcoming Greek critical reconstruction of the Apostolos (or Apostolikon) with Narr Francke Attempto Verlag is, according to the latest news, slated for December of 2023 or thereabouts. I've now completed a full English translation of that Greek text, side by side with the canonical Paul text. Jack Bull, Vinzent's PhD student, is editing the volume as we speak.

In the meantime, BeDuhn's Apostolikon is the best text available. A close comparison of its features with those of the canonical 10 letters of Paul can and will reveal the divergences.

Here's a list of some of the post prominent that jumped out to me as I translated both texts:
1. minimal concern with fundraising in Apostolos -> enormous concern with fundraising in canonical Paul (esp 2 Cor)
2. minimal self-referential comments in Apostolos -> frequent and repeated quasi-biographical details in canonical Paul, including repeated concerns about Paul imposters and letter authorship authentication
3. minimal colleagues in Apostolos -> a massive entourage of fellow apostles and diplomatic representatives in canonical Paul
4. direct heavenly apostolic authority in Apostolos -> heavenly calling synced up with and aligned with Jerusalem/pillars in canonical Paul
5. minimal travel/itinerary details in Apostolos (and Evangelion) -> extensive travel details that synchronize the text with canonical Acts and the travel obsession in the canonical Luke redaction as well
6. occasional, poignant references to Judean scripture in Apostolos -> extensive LXX scripture catenae in canonical Paul
7. newness and radical character of the "good message" in Apostolos -> retrospective salvation-history perspective in canonical Paul (esp Rom 9-11, almost entirely missing from Apostolos)
8. clear valorization of celibacy -> making celibacy more of an option

There are many more. To me, it's crystal clear that the Apostolos reflects a significantly earlier time in the development of the Jesus movement, and that the canonical portions of Paul missing from Apostolos align significantly with the proto-orthodox program in the Pastorals and Acts.
I've a habit of reading the conclusion of a book before wading through the storyline or the technical details. Thus, Mark, it's your suggested conclusion that interest me. (not overlooking your hard work in arriving at your conclusions...) There was a thread on dating Paul on the old FRDB forum. 10 years ago....) With not a word of Greek to my name - I suggested that dating Paul and Marcion should be the reverse order of how they are usually dated. Marcion - or to be more accurate to my mind - the writings in the possession of Marcion are early and the writings attributed to a Paul are later.

So, I'll be following along this thread with interest.....

Your research data could well turn NT scholarship on it's head - both for the Jesus historicists as well as for mythicists who follow Carrier. Yep, maybe, finally, the great arch-heretic comes home and clears the fog surrounding NT scholarship.
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maryhelena
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by maryhelena »

A short while ago I wrote a post on Capernaum. Since this thread is going to be dealing with Marcion, I though it might be a good idea to repost it here. Leaving aside interpretations of a sky god taking on flesh - or re John's gospel of the Word becoming flesh - ideas that modern day reasoning would find devoid of logic in any physical sense. Perhaps, we, today, should endeavor to, as it were, translate, update, in modern language and understanding, what ancient writers were endeavoring to articulate.

Basically, my argument would be to view Capernaum in a symbolic sense; a philosophical Capernaum. The place of wonders, of imagination, the place from which ideas can take on flesh, where ideas, as it were, come down to earth and lead to a transforming of the real world, the reality in which we actually live.

Capernaum and Marcion

Post by maryhelena » Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:46 pm

While both the gospel attributed to Marcion and the gospel of Luke make reference to the 15th year of Tiberius, Marcion's gospel has his Jesus coming down to Capernaum in that year. The gospel of Matthew says of Jesus: Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, (Matthew 4:13)

3. 1 In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, when
Pilate was governing Judea, 4 31 Jesus came down to
Capharnaum, a city of Galilee.

The First New Testament: Marcion's Scriptural Canon:
Jason D. BeDuhn

Is there anything special about Capernaum? Josephus seems to think so:

8. The country also that lies over against this lake hath the same name of Gennesareth; its nature is wonderful as well as its beauty; its soil is so fruitful that all sorts of trees can grow upon it, and the inhabitants accordingly plant all sorts of trees there; for the temper of the air is so well mixed that it agrees very well with those several sorts, particularly walnuts, which require the coldest air, flourish there in vast plenty; there are palm trees also, which grow best in hot air; fig trees also and olives grow near them, which yet require an air that is more temperate. One may call this place the ambition of nature, where it forces those plants that are naturally enemies to one another to agree together: it is a happy contention of the seasons, as if every one of them laid claim to this country; for it not only nourishes different sorts of autumnal fruit beyond men’s expectation, but preserves them a great while; it supplies men with the principal fruits, with grapes and figs, continually, during ten months of the year, (11) and the rest of the fruits as they become ripe together through the whole year: for besides the good temperature of the air, it is also watered from a most fertile fountain. The people of the country call it Capharnaum. Some have thought it to be a vein of the Nile, because it produces the Coracin fish as well as that lake does which is near to Alexandria. The length of this country extends itself along the banks of this lake that bears the same name, for thirty furlongs, and is in breadth twenty, And this is the nature of that place.

Josephus: War book 3 ch.10

With such talk of water and fountains and wonderful beauty in nature, soil that is fruitful and palm trees and fig and olive trees - this place is the ambition of nature - plants that are natural enemies agree together, a happy contention of the seasons, supplies fruit beyond men’s expectation...Are we not seeing here a vision of Camelot, of Arcadia?

Taking Josephus at his word, that he was not unfamiliar with the prophets etc and had visions and could interpreted them - is he not here dealing with an abstract ideal rather than the geography of the region?

Years later Josephus has a story about falling off his horse and gets taken to Capernaum.

For the horse on which I rode, and upon whose back I fought, fell into a quagmire; and threw me on the ground. And I was bruised on my wrist and carried into a village, named Cepharnome.25 or Capernaum. When my soldiers heard of this, they were afraid I had been worse hurt than I was; and so they did not go on with their pursuit any farther: but returned in very great concern for me. I therefore sent for the physicians: and while I was under their hand, I continued feaverish that day: and, as the physicians directed, I was that night removed to Taricheæ.

Josephus: Life

Capernaum a place of healing, a place that is the ambition of nature. Is this what the author of the gospel attributed to Marcion had in mind when having Jesus descent to this earthly paradise ?

Maybe this Josephan vision of Arcadia, published in War around 73/74 c.e. might have inspired the writer of Marcion's gospel to have his Jesus come down to Capernaum ? This might place Marcoin's gospel soon after Josephus' War. That years later this gospel fell into the hands of Marcion, or the Marcionites, would indicate it probably had a considerable period of time before the Lukan writer wrote the recap of previous gospels. Yep, gospel stories about Jesus, Pilate and Tiberius developed over time. Updates are not rejection of older versions of the story. Indicating, of course, that the gospel Jesus is a literary figure not a flesh and blood historical figure. Unfortunately, NT scholars still use a historical Jesus bias when confronted with Marcion.

As noted in the OP, the writer of Marcion's gospel, in placing his Jesus story in the 15th year of Tiberius, a year that is 7 years from the end of the rule of Tiberius in 37 c.e., is concerned, interested, in numbers (as was Philo). In other words; symbolism or philosophical ideals. Perhaps, Capernaum is not simply a place in Galilee but represents an ideal vision of earthly society.

Capernaum

Toponymy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capernaum

Kfar Naḥum, the original name of the town, means "village of comfort" in Hebrew, and apparently there is no connection with the prophet named Nahum. In the writings of Josephus, the name is rendered in Koine Greek as Kαφαρναούμ (Kapharnaoúm)[6] and Κεφαρνωκόν (Kepharnōkón);[7] the New Testament uses Kapharnaoúm in some manuscripts, and Kαπερναούμ (Kapernaoúm) in others. In the Midrash Rabba (Ecclesiastes Rabba 7:47) the name appears in its Hebrew form, Kǝfar Naḥūm (Hebrew: כפר נחום). In Arabic, it is also called Talḥūm, and it is assumed that this refers to the ruin (tall) of Ḥūm (perhaps an abbreviated form of Nāḥūm).[6]




Enjoy..... ;)
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by gryan »

vocesanticae wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 2:41 pm
gryan wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:56 am Dear Dr. Bilby,

According to you, 30 percent of the writings attributed to Paul are authentic. Do I understand you correctly? Could you please elaborate on this. Are there specific characteristics of this 30% authentic Paul?
I tend to think the 30% still preserves the ipsissima verba of the historical Paul and (like BeDuhn, see "Myth of Marcion as Redactor", and like Klinghardt also) see Marcion as more a passive compiler rather than a heavy-handed editor, as is also the case with the Evangelion. Vinzent leans more on the side of Marcion taking a much more active role in filtering and re-writing earlier texts from a "stock" of Paul's letters in circulation. It will be interesting to see where the data science leads us.

Vinzent's forthcoming Greek critical reconstruction of the Apostolos (or Apostolikon) with Narr Francke Attempto Verlag is, according to the latest news, slated for December of 2023 or thereabouts. I've now completed a full English translation of that Greek text, side by side with the canonical Paul text. Jack Bull, Vinzent's PhD student, is editing the volume as we speak.

In the meantime, BeDuhn's Apostolikon is the best text available. A close comparison of its features with those of the canonical 10 letters of Paul can and will reveal the divergences.

Here's a list of some of the post prominent that jumped out to me as I translated both texts:
1. minimal concern with fundraising in Apostolos -> enormous concern with fundraising in canonical Paul (esp 2 Cor)
2. minimal self-referential comments in Apostolos -> frequent and repeated quasi-biographical details in canonical Paul, including repeated concerns about Paul imposters and letter authorship authentication
3. minimal colleagues in Apostolos -> a massive entourage of fellow apostles and diplomatic representatives in canonical Paul
4. direct heavenly apostolic authority in Apostolos -> heavenly calling synced up with and aligned with Jerusalem/pillars in canonical Paul
5. minimal travel/itinerary details in Apostolos (and Evangelion) -> extensive travel details that synchronize the text with canonical Acts and the travel obsession in the canonical Luke redaction as well
6. occasional, poignant references to Judean scripture in Apostolos -> extensive LXX scripture catenae in canonical Paul
7. newness and radical character of the "good message" in Apostolos -> retrospective salvation-history perspective in canonical Paul (esp Rom 9-11, almost entirely missing from Apostolos)
8. clear valorization of celibacy -> making celibacy more of an option

There are many more. To me, it's crystal clear that the Apostolos reflects a significantly earlier time in the development of the Jesus movement, and that the canonical portions of Paul missing from Apostolos align significantly with the proto-orthodox program in the Pastorals and Acts.
Thanks.

In your methodological camp, do you all tend to take a side in the πίστις Χριστοῦ debate? Are the πίστις Χριστοῦ phrases in the 30%?
vocesanticae
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by vocesanticae »

I ran a quick search of the lemmatized and morphologically tagged version of Vinzent's Greek Apostolos that I've compiled and which he and I will be co-publishing.

I see the bigram πίστις@[^ ]+ Χριστός in Gal 2.16 and Phil 3.9 in both the Apostolos and the canonical Paul.

Are there other instances to which you would point me?

Here's what I've written in the draft introduction of the English translation:

"For the root πιστ- / pist-, which could be rendered as “believ-/belief”, “trust/entrust”, and “faith/fidelity”, and related negative forms, the second and third stems are adopted as defaults. This reinforces for readers that the earliest Jesus movement—embedded in Judean and Greco-Roman contexts—did not share their progeny’s later obsession over doctrinal theology (i.e., belief as content and/or intellectual assent), but focused instead on community identity, ritual, and ethics (i.e., faith as covenant participation and practice)."

Whether the genitive is subjective or objective is unclear, but I also think it doesn't really matter, because either way it fits within the later frame, not the former.
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