γυμνὸς or γυμνοὶ in Clement's Letter to Theodore?

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Ken Olson
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Re: γυμνὸς or γυμνοὶ in Clement's Letter to Theodore?

Post by Ken Olson »

Ken Olson wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 5:42 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 5:24 pm
Ken Olson wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 4:23 pm Venetia Anastasapoulou writes on p.12 of her report, which I imagine you have, if not I can post the page):
That could be helpful. Thanks!

I would also benefit from having a better photograph.
Yes, a better image would help, and perhaps some more experienced palaeographers participating in the discussion. But no I don't agree that the final sigmas in the four examples I gave are more dissimilar to the final letter of γυμνοX than the iotas are, particularly in τούτοις, which has both.

Best,

Ken
Sorry, I think I missed the first sentence when I read this. Here is p. 12 of Venetia Anastasapoulou's report.
Venetia Anastasopoulou - P. 12.png
Venetia Anastasopoulou - P. 12.png (313.25 KiB) Viewed 273 times
Best,

Ken
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Re: γυμνὸς or γυμνοὶ in Clement's Letter to Theodore?

Post by AdamKvanta »

Ken Olson wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2024 1:07 am I am dubious about positing a later gnostic interpolation into the Second Apocalypse as though that were foreign to the rest of the text. ... The text is ambiguous, but it seems to me that neither James nor Jesus were in what we might call a normal earthly state of embodied existence...
Interesting perspective. To me, the text looks like it has many foreign elements and probably was redacted/interpolated more than once. There is a pure gnostic element but there is also a mundane description of reality where people have a normal earthly state of embodied existence. At least, that's my opinion.
Ken Olson wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2024 1:07 am Have you read the OP in Peter Kirby's new thread on the Second Apocalypse of James?
Yes, and so I will rather continue arguing there.
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Re: γυμνὸς or γυμνοὶ in Clement's Letter to Theodore?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Let me say again that I am no expert and can bring only an eye for detail and an attempt to understand what I'm seeing.

With regard to the final sigmas on these lines:

https://akma.disseminary.org/wp-content ... etMark.pdf
10 Ἰησοῦς τὸ µυστήριον τῆς βασιλείας τοῦ Θεοῦ. Ἐκεῖθεν δὲ ἀναστὰς
11 ἐπέστρεψεν εἰς τὸ πέραν τοῦ Ἰορδάνου. Ἐπὶ µὲν τούτοις ἕπεται τὸ καὶ
12 προσεπορεύοντο αὐτῷ Ἰάκωβος καὶ Ἰωάννης καὶ πᾶσα ἡ
13 περικοπή. Τὸ δὲ [γυµνοὶ / γυµνὸς] γυµνῷ καὶ τἆvα περὶ ὧν ἔγραψας οὐκ
14 εὑρίσκεται. Μετὰ δὲ τὸ καὶ ἔρχεται εἰς Ἱεριχὼ ἐπάγει µόνον, καὶ
15 ἦσαν ἐκεῖ ἡ ἀδελφὴ τοῦ νεανίσκου, ὃν ἠγάπα αὐτὸν ὁ Ἰησοῦς, καὶ
16 ἡ µήτηρ αὐτοῦ καὶ Σαλώµη, καὶ οὐκ ἀπεδέξατο αὐτὰς ὁ Ἰησοῦς.
17 Τὰ δὲ ἄvα τὰ ποvὰ ἁ ἐγραψας ψεύσµατα καὶ φαίνεται καὶ ἐστιν. Ἡ
18 µὲν οὖν ἀληθὴς καὶ κατὰ τὴν ἀληθῆ φιλοσοφίαν ἐξήγησις

With the better quality image that has been provided with thanks due to you, Viklund, and Hedrick:
Ken Olson wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 6:31 am Here is the better quality image of the third page of the Letter to Theodore, with thanks to Roger Viklund and Charles W. Hedrick.
And so commenting on examples of final sigma that are free standing:

10 τῆς (dissimilar to subject & final sigma similar)
10-tes.jpg
10-tes.jpg (12.94 KiB) Viewed 248 times
A final sigma has been formed by providing a sharp line to the right (and slightly up) before proceeding downward-left.

11 εἰς (dissimilar to subject & final sigma similar)
11-eis.jpg
11-eis.jpg (10.87 KiB) Viewed 248 times
A final sigma has been formed with a stroke that goes downward-left, then downward-right, and then again downward-left.

11 τούτοις (dissimilar to subject & final sigma similar)
11-toutois.jpg
11-toutois.jpg (7.98 KiB) Viewed 248 times
Observe the outline of the strokes made from the profile of where the ink contrasts with the paper on the left. The writer has made a downward line (only slightly to the left), followed by a lateral line (only slightly downward), and finished with a downward-left line. When observed from the profile from the right, the first two lines have been merged by the ink blotting somewhat more of the paper than elsewhere.

12 Ἰάκωβος (dissimilar to subject & final sigma similar)
12-iakobos.jpg
12-iakobos.jpg (8.18 KiB) Viewed 248 times
A final sigma here goes down and slightly left, then right and slightly down, then again down and slightly left.

12 Ἰωάννης (dissimilar to subject & final sigma similar)
12-ioannes.jpg
12-ioannes.jpg (8.4 KiB) Viewed 248 times
A final sigma has been formed with a stroke that goes downward-left, then right and slightly down, and then again downward-left.

14 εἰς (dissimilar to subject & final sigma similar)
14-eis.jpg
14-eis.jpg (7.95 KiB) Viewed 248 times
A final sigma has been formed with a stroke that goes downward-left, then downward-right, and then again downward-left.

18 ἀληθὴς (dissimilar to subject & final sigma similar)
18-alethes.jpg
18-alethes.jpg (8.03 KiB) Viewed 248 times
A final sigma is seen that goes down and slightly left, then right and slightly down, and then finally downward-left.

18 ἐξήγησις (dissimilar to subject & final sigma similar)
18-exegesis.jpg
18-exegesis.jpg (8.77 KiB) Viewed 248 times
A final sigma is seen that goes downward-left, then practically straight to the right, and again downward-left.

Here are some free-standing iotas on the same page. I will leave comment on whether the subject is an iota to the end here. I take them in reverse order because that is the order in which I reviewed them and commented on them.

https://akma.disseminary.org/wp-content ... etMark.pdf
1 εὐθὺς ἠκούσθη ἐκ τοῦ µνηµείου φωνὴ µεγάλη, καὶ προσελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς
2 ἀπἐκύλισε τὸν λίθον ἀπὸ τῆς θύρας τοῦ µνηµείου, καὶ εἰσελθὼν εὐθὺς ὅπου
3 ἦν ὁ νεανίσκος ἐξέτεινεν τὴν χεῖρα καὶ ἤγειρεν αὐτὸν κρατήσας
4 τῆς χειρός, ὁ δὲ νεανίσκος ἐµβλέψας αὐτῷ ἠγάπησεν αὐτὸν καὶ
5 ἤρξατο παρακαλεῖν αὐτὸν ἵνα µετ’ αὐτοῦ ᾖ. Καὶ ἐξελθόντες ἐκ
6 τοῦ µνηµείου ἦλθον εἰς τὴν οἰκίαν τοῦ νεανίσκου, ἦν γὰρ πλούσιος. Καὶ µεθ’
7 ἡµέρας ἓξ ἐπέταξεν αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, καὶ ὀψίας γενοµένης ἔρχεται ὁ
8 νεανίσκος πρὸς αὐτὸν περιβεβληµένος σινδόνα ἐπὶ γυµνοῦ, a καὶ
9 ἔµεινε σὺν αὐτῷ τὴν νύκτα ἐκείνην. Ἐδίδασκε γὰρ αὐτὸν ὁ
10 Ἰησοῦς τὸ µυστήριον τῆς βασιλείας τοῦ Θεοῦ. Ἐκεῖθεν δὲ ἀναστὰς
11 ἐπέστρεψεν εἰς τὸ πέραν τοῦ Ἰορδάνου. Ἐπὶ µὲν τούτοις ἕπεται τὸ καὶ
12 προσεπορεύοντο αὐτῷ Ἰάκωβος καὶ Ἰωάννης καὶ πᾶσα ἡ
13 περικοπή. Τὸ δὲ [γυµνοὶ / γυµνὸς] γυµνῷ καὶ τἆvα περὶ ὧν ἔγραψας οὐκ
14 εὑρίσκεται. Μετὰ δὲ τὸ καὶ ἔρχεται εἰς Ἱεριχὼ ἐπάγει µόνον, καὶ
15 ἦσαν ἐκεῖ ἡ ἀδελφὴ τοῦ νεανίσκου, ὃν ἠγάπα αὐτὸν ὁ Ἰησοῦς, καὶ
16 ἡ µήτηρ αὐτοῦ καὶ Σαλώµη, καὶ οὐκ ἀπεδέξατο αὐτὰς ὁ Ἰησοῦς.
17 Τὰ δὲ ἄvα τὰ ποvὰ ἁ ἐγραψας ψεύσµατα καὶ φαίνεται καὶ ἐστιν. Ἡ
18 µὲν οὖν ἀληθὴς καὶ κατὰ τὴν ἀληθῆ φιλοσοφίαν ἐξήγησις…

17 ἐστιν (iota sans-serif & dissimilar to final sigmas)
17-estin.jpg
17-estin.jpg (8.13 KiB) Viewed 248 times
This is iota-like in that it is a single unbroken downward stroke.

15 νεανίσκου (iota with serifs & dissimilar to final sigmas)
15-neaniskou.jpg
15-neaniskou.jpg (8.22 KiB) Viewed 248 times
Providing my own terminology here, since I don't know how this is described in the literature: this is iota-like in that it is one downward stroke that has been decorated with two slight serif-style projections on either end.

11 τούτοις (iota with serifs & dissimilar to final sigmas)
11-i-toutois.jpg
11-i-toutois.jpg (8.21 KiB) Viewed 248 times
Providing my own terminology here: That this is a serif for the iota is shown by the way that the writing begins with a stroke to the right, followed by the downward stroke, and finally another small bend for another serif. It is thus similar to other iotas with serifs and dissimilar to final sigmas, where a stroke to the right arrives near the center of writing the character itself.

8 νεανίσκος (iota sans-serif or iota with small serifs & dissimilar to final sigmas)
8-neaniskos.jpg
8-neaniskos.jpg (8.26 KiB) Viewed 248 times
My own terminology: There are possibly two slight serifs decorating the iota, at the very top and bottom.

7 ὀψίας (iota with one large serif & dissimilar to final sigmas)
7-opsias.jpg
7-opsias.jpg (9.07 KiB) Viewed 248 times
My own terminology: begins with a large serif stroke to the right and proceeds to draw the downward stroke of the iota.

6 νεανίσκου (curved iota sans-serif & dissimilar to final sigmas)
6-neaniskou.jpg
6-neaniskou.jpg (8.06 KiB) Viewed 248 times
It may not be worthwhile to make a distinction between an iota with a single serif at the top or a curved iota sans-serif, especially when that distinction can be hard to make, as it is here. I am mentioning them both here in this discussion. I would welcome any references to greater expertise in what terminology to use and what distinctions to make here. In either case, it is easily classified with the other iotas with similar features.

4 νεανίσκος (iota with large serif at the top and small serif at the bottom & dissimilar to final sigmas)
4-neaniskos.jpg
4-neaniskos.jpg (8.4 KiB) Viewed 248 times
The serifs can again be recognized, at the top and bottom, bending in the other direction from the downward stroke of the iota.

3 νεανίσκος (iota with a serif at the top & dissimilar to final sigmas)
3-neaniskos.jpg
3-neaniskos.jpg (8.33 KiB) Viewed 248 times
This might have been argued to be just a curved iota sans-serif, and indeed I am forced to create terminology as I go, based on what I'm seeing, due to my lack of expertise. It is being referenced here as an iota with a serif at the top because the stroke begins to go upward and then later starts to go downward, continuing to form a characteristic downward stroke of an iota. Perhaps calling this a serif is inappropriate. In any case, it is also easily classified with other iotas with similar features. It can be noted from what we've seen so far that there is a greater variety in the presentation or absence of serifs with the iotas as well as additional variety due to how the iota can be either curved or basically straight. By comparison, the final sigmas that we have reviewed are relatively consistent, with all of them recognizably very similar to each other in the choice of strokes made.

2 λίθον (iota with a serif at the top & dissimilar to final sigmas)
2 - lithon.jpg
2 - lithon.jpg (7.9 KiB) Viewed 248 times
Some might find a serif at the bottom, but I can't distinguish it from blotting ink. The serif at the top in this example is remarkably angular, while other examples are more curved. The stroke of the iota itself is also straight.

2 ἀπἐκύλισε (iota with a serif at the top & dissimilar to final sigmas)
2-apekulise.jpg
2-apekulise.jpg (8.21 KiB) Viewed 248 times
Like the last example, the serif at the top and the iota is remarkably straight and angular, with a slight upward slope, while the bottom appears to have pooled some ink.

Since there is greater variety in the iotas, additional light can be shed on the subject from two more examples previously brought to attention. I believe that Tselikas brought attention to these examples.

page 1, line 9 συµφωνοίη
line9-(sum)phonoie.jpg
line9-(sum)phonoie.jpg (7.88 KiB) Viewed 248 times
Based on my own admittedly idiosyncratic terminology for what I'm seeing, this looks like a curved iota sans-serif.

page 2, line 6 εὐαγγελίου
page2-line6.jpg
page2-line6.jpg (7.84 KiB) Viewed 248 times
A similar case that resembles what I have previously called a curved iota sans-serif.

This is our subject (to the right of the omicron).
subject.jpg
subject.jpg (12.03 KiB) Viewed 248 times
I will leave a discussion of the subject character for another post.
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Re: γυμνὸς or γυμνοὶ in Clement's Letter to Theodore?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Ken Olson wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2024 6:36 pm
Ken Olson wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 5:42 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 5:24 pm
Ken Olson wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 4:23 pm Venetia Anastasapoulou writes on p.12 of her report, which I imagine you have, if not I can post the page):
That could be helpful. Thanks!

I would also benefit from having a better photograph.
Yes, a better image would help, and perhaps some more experienced palaeographers participating in the discussion. But no I don't agree that the final sigmas in the four examples I gave are more dissimilar to the final letter of γυμνοX than the iotas are, particularly in τούτοις, which has both.

Best,

Ken
Sorry, I think I missed the first sentence when I read this. Here is p. 12 of Venetia Anastasapoulou's report.

Venetia Anastasopoulou - P. 12.png

Best,

Ken
Thanks, Ken! And thank you very much for tracking down images of those photos.
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Re: γυμνὸς or γυμνοὶ in Clement's Letter to Theodore?

Post by SaosSidirountios »

[/quote]

I may be quite wrong, but I wonder whether you are confusing Clement of Rome (to whom much spurious material has indeed been attributed) with Clement of Alexandria.

Andrew Criddle
[/quote]

Hi Andrew, according to what I have seen there are masses of material which is attributed to Clemet of Alexandria, but they are not works of Clement of Alexandria. This is the case with many more other Early and later writings which have been accepted as original. Many early works are the products of authors who lived much later and never used their own names to publish anything. They published under the names of previous important authors in order to secure attention and readership. Another factor which made spurious writers to produce works under the famous names of other earlier authors, was to secure income. A good work supposedly written by an early famous author was often bought by wealthy buyers of books. The books back at the early and later centuries were very expensive products, bought only by the very wealthy. Regarding the originality of Clement of Rome I agree with Ellegård.
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Re: γυμνὸς or γυμνοὶ in Clement's Letter to Theodore?

Post by andrewcriddle »

SaosSidirountios wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 3:05 am

I may be quite wrong, but I wonder whether you are confusing Clement of Rome (to whom much spurious material has indeed been attributed) with Clement of Alexandria.

Andrew Criddle
Hi Andrew, according to what I have seen there are masses of material which is attributed to Clemet of Alexandria, but they are not works of Clement of Alexandria. This is the case with many more other Early and later writings which have been accepted as original. Many early works are the products of authors who lived much later and never used their own names to publish anything. They published under the names of previous important authors in order to secure attention and readership. Another factor which made spurious writers to produce works under the famous names of other earlier authors, was to secure income. A good work supposedly written by an early famous author was often bought by wealthy buyers of books. The books back at the early and later centuries were very expensive products, bought only by the very wealthy. Regarding the originality of Clement of Rome I agree with Ellegård.
Could you please give an example of a work wrongly attributed to Clement of Alexandria ?
Thanks.

Andrew Criddle
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Re: γυμνὸς or γυμνοὶ in Clement's Letter to Theodore?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 3:46 pm This is our subject (to the right of the omicron).

Image

I will leave a discussion of the subject character for another post.
Here is the subject character alongside other instances of iota after omicron.
oi.jpeg
oi.jpeg (79.63 KiB) Viewed 140 times
Here are some examples of final sigma, which were mentioned above.
sigma.png
sigma.png (54.6 KiB) Viewed 140 times
The subject character is an iota, not a sigma.
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Re: γυμνὸς or γυμνοὶ in Clement's Letter to Theodore?

Post by Peter Kirby »

In addition:
Secret Alias wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 3:03 pm Three nouns that end in -νος

ἐκλεγόμενος (first page)
χρησάμενος (second page)
περιβεβλημένος (third page)

Do any of these look like γυμνοὶ on page three? Completely different ligature already recognized by Tselikas. https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/wp- ... ions-1.pdf
Secret Alias wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:23 pm No one seems to know what the ligature for νος is. Tselikas knows:

Image

So if the handwriting was spelling γυμνὸς it would be γυμ+

Image

Or if you want other examples:

Image
Ken Olson wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:18 pm
Secret Alias wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 4:11 pm Somehow I have managed to have three different photos of each page of the original manuscript for proper comparison. Notice the final ligature -νος consistent throughout:
That is a good argument.
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