Messiah != Son of God

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rakovsky
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

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spin wrote:
Rakovsky wrote: yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
That's one of the many examples that shows that Paul is not a binitarian. There is one god, the father... and one lord, Jesus.... A god and a lord. Jesus is the latter category.
Hmmmm
So Paul did not consider God or the Father to be Lord then?
That does not sound right. It must not be meant in some kind if excusionary sense, ie
One God the Father not Jesus
One Lord Jesus not the Father

....

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Re: Messiah != Son of God

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spin wrote:
rakovsky wrote:
spin wrote: You're supposed to be trying to deal with Greek. Not English. Not Russian. Not Saami.
Yes, Russian translators were dealing with Greek. The value is a different group of translators reached the same conclusion coming from a different tradition and language family, Slavic and orthodox.
You are not dealing with the Greek.
Yes I am dealing with the Greek.

Does this phrase sound perfectly normal in Greek?
" God[subject noun] blessed[noun] for ever. "
It sounds clunky in English to have no verb form there like a past participle even. But sure, we are dealing with Greek.

You demanded I answer the issue that in your view blessed should be with the noun before it unless there is a good reason otherwise. Instead of evasion, I met this directly- saying that forever does not sound naturally independent as a clause, thereby pulling in the phrase blessed.
Likewise, the phrase over all can demand an object, as in Jesus is over all... what?
In Latin made by Jerome does it sound any better as there are no commas?

" quorum patres et ex quibus Christus secundum carnem qui est super omnia Deus benedictus in saecula amen"

This is relevant because it shows how they were understanding the verse in Jerome's time as opposed to this just being a modern innovation.
It looks to me like the same lack of clarity exists.

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Re: Messiah != Son of God

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rakovsky wrote:
spin wrote:
Rakovsky wrote: yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
That's one of the many examples that shows that Paul is not a binitarian. There is one god, the father... and one lord, Jesus.... A god and a lord. Jesus is the latter category.
Hmmmm
So Paul did not consider God or the Father to be Lord then?
You need to understand:

Ps 110:1 The Lord says to my lord....

The first κυριος clearly refers to God. It is used instead of ha-shem. The second is a person of rank, like a master or a captain. There is no problem with this:

There is one god, the father, and one lord, Jesus.

One lord is an indication of a person with rank and there is only one.
That does not sound right. It must not be meant in some kind if excusionary sense, ie
One God the Father not Jesus
One Lord Jesus not the Father

....
Sorry, this seems like you just don't understand the verse.
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

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rakovsky wrote:
spin wrote: You are not dealing with the Greek.
Yes I am dealing with the Greek.
You are kidding yourself. You've shown no knowledge of Greek and it is obvious that is the reality.
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

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Check out where Paul uses a similar phrase in Greek:
Romans 1
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Notice that Paul supplied "who is" there, inserting a verb into the clause. The same thing is in the Greek with the verb.
Over in Rom 9 :5, Paul writes "who is over all God blessed forever", but he does not use any verb in the ending clause after "all" or "God." Does "God blessed[noun] forever" sound normal in Greek?

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Re: Messiah != Son of God

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spin wrote:
rakovsky wrote:
spin wrote: That's one of the many examples that shows that Paul is not a binitarian. There is one god, the father... and one lord, Jesus.... A god and a lord. Jesus is the latter category.
Hmmmm
So Paul did not consider God or the Father to be Lord then?
You need to understand:

Ps 110:1 The Lord says to my lord....

The first κυριος clearly refers to God. It is used instead of ha-shem. The second is a person of rank, like a master or a captain. There is no problem with this:

There is one god, the father, and one lord, Jesus.

One lord is an indication of a person with rank and there is only one.
That does not sound right. It must not be meant in some kind if excusionary sense, ie
One God the Father not Jesus
One Lord Jesus not the Father

....
Sorry, this seems like you just don't understand the verse.
I think Paul would not deny that God the Father was also his Lord or "master".
In the gospel, Jesus says You cannot serve two masters. Doesn't Jesus also say I and the father are one?
Sometimes religions having distinctions for things that overlap.
For example, who is the Creator, singular, who Paul demands we worship in Romans 1?
Isn't that God?
But Paul also names Jesus as Creator of all.
So sometimes things that seem distinct actually overlap.

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Re: Messiah != Son of God

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rakovsky wrote:Check out where Paul uses a similar phrase in Greek:
Romans 1
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Notice that Paul supplied "who is" there, inserting a verb into the clause.
That should tell you that we are dealing with something else and that Rom 1:25 sheds no light on 9:5.
The same thing is in the Greek with the verb.
Over in Rom 9 :5, Paul writes "who is over all God blessed forever", but he does not use any verb in the ending clause after "all" or "God." Does "God blessed[noun] forever" sound normal in Greek?
Yes. Go back and read whay I wrote about it. While you are at it go and learn a bit of Greek grammar to understand the ways you can subordinate clauses.
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

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The Trinity Delusion webpage says that three alternate translations are possible grammatically for this verse.
http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospe ... om9_5.html

It also says "Blessed" is a term always referring to God being the blessed one. Ironically this backs up the Trinitarian view, since earlier you said Jesus was the one being blessed.
The anti Trinitarian article also quotes Ephesians 4 saying God is over all.
"one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."
(Ephesians 4:6).

Yet we also know Paul elsewhere calls Jesus "potentate over all". So if Paul thinks the one over all is God and Jesus is over all..... that is a hint of trinitarianism.

And we also remember that Paul specified that while all are of the father, all are "through" Jesus.
But in Ephesians 4, it says all are through God the Father.
Looks like more equating Jesus was God in Ephesians.

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Re: Messiah != Son of God

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spin wrote:learn a bit of Greek grammar to understand the ways you can subordinate clauses.
I am looking for pages talking about the Greek grammar here.
So far I got the anti Trinitarian page saying both are possible and quoting Eph 4 saying God is over all and all is through him.

Another page I found was an apologetics one:
http://www.forananswer.org/Romans/Rom9_5.htm
Doxologies to God in the Bible which contain the word "blessed" (Greek: eulogêtos; Hebrew: bârak) always place this word in the first position2. As Bruce Metzger notes, it is "altogether incredible that Paul, whose ear must have been perfectly familiar with this constantly recurring formula of praise, should in the solitary instance have departed from established usage" (Metzger, Punctuation, p. 107).
...
It is argued by some that because Paul does not use "God" of Jesus elsewhere, that he cannot be doing so here - particularly in what appears to be such a casual way. However, Paul almost certainly calls Jesus "God" in one other verse (Titus 2:13), attributes to Christ all the fullness Deity (Col 2:9), quotes OT passages referring to YHWH and directs them at Jesus (e.g., Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2:10), and speaks of Christ in the highest possible terms (Col 2:3).
Over on the Biblical Greek forum, the writers agree that there is no grammatically set translation:

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... f=6&t=1587

I invite you to produce a scholarly discussion on the verse that says that the verse definitely says exactly what you claim, and I can show it to my Greek colleagues.

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Re: Messiah != Son of God

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spin wrote:
rakovsky wrote:Check out where Paul uses a similar phrase in Greek:
Romans 1
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Notice that Paul supplied "who is" there, inserting a verb into the clause.
That should tell you that we are dealing with something else and that Rom 1:25 sheds no light on 9:5.
Some of the sites I checked noted the use of the Greek word blessed in both verses.
Paul considered Jesus the creator and "only potentate", and in Rom 1 the relevance is that he calls the Creator "blessed".
Isn't God the only Creator according to Isaiah 44?
Isn't God the Father the one who is through all in Eph 4?

If it was one verse, that would be one thing, but Paul does this all over the place.
Last edited by rakovsky on Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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