Is Trajan the abomination of desolation?

[Giuseppe]

Ken, I imagine that you are aware that the witness of Pliny the Younger is disputable. So, removing Pliny the Younger from the scenario, we have Justin as earliest evidence of persecutions against Christians.

[Giuseppe]

Giuseppe please walk through Daniel 9:24 - 27 and take me through who is the messiah and how it all fits within a second century framework? I have never seen it spelled out.

here none is denying that Mark 13:1-2 refers to the destruction of the temple. The real question is what comes after the verse 2, in Mark 13.

In addition to this, the Christian interpolations in the Testament of the 12 Patriarchs (interpolations dated to 70-100 CE) talk about a Jesus who appears to be very different from the Gospel Jesus, so proving that the Gospel Jesus was not a product of the First Revolt (66-70 CE), but of the Second Revolt (133-135 CE).

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Whatever the choice may be, Jesus instruction should make any sense that as soon as the abomination is seen, those in Judea should flee to the mountains.

[Giuseppe]

Whatever the choice may be, Jesus instruction should make any sense that as soon as the abomination is seen, those in Judea should flee to the mountains.

It is not hard to see it as an invitation to practice monotheism despite of adversities and despite of growing anti-demiurgism. The 'mountains" are not true mountains. Googling 'mountains in the bible' one finds as first result:

Mountains have a logical religious symbolism for Jewish and Christian cultures since they are “closer to God” who dwells in the heavens (as in the sky). As a result, God often reveals himself on a mountaintop in the text. In the Old Testament, the mountains of Sinai and Zion are most significant.

So as soon as Hadrian (or the Magus) is seen, those in Judea should adore the Jewish god.

[Secret Alias]

Give me a break. You have to recognize that there is a chronological understanding in Daniel which makes it difficult - I would say impossible - to make Mark a second century prediction. This is what bothers me about a lot of 'revisionist/mythicist scholarship.' If you're exploring early traditions that thought Jesus was a supernatural being - fine. Investigate. Make notes. Draw conclusions. But it - at least my impression would suggest - is always tied in with other investigations which seem at least to me to be part of a greater effort to weaken Christianity. Why is it necessary to connect Jesus is a supernatural being with Christianity is a second century phenomenon with all of the earliest witnesses are 'fake' etc etc? Mark unfolds as a interpretation of Daniel chapter 9 which is clearly set in the first century. If it is so easy to explain as a second century prophesy lay it out for us. Otherwise abandon this bit of silliness.

[Giuseppe]

Dnaiel 9:56 has the city destroyed, and not only the temple:

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary

The city has been destroyed by Hadrian, not by Titus, who allowed the Jewish presence in it.

[Giuseppe]

In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

(Daniel 9:26)

The "sacrifice and offering" could still be practiced in a mere tent, in the place where before there was the temple, after the 70. Hadrian forbade even that.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Whatever the choice may be, Jesus instruction should make any sense that as soon as the abomination is seen, those in Judea should flee to the mountains.

It is not hard to see it as an invitation to practice monotheism despite of adversities and despite of growing anti-demiurgism. The 'mountains" are not true mountains.

So as soon as Hadrian (or the Magus) is seen, those in Judea should adore the Jewish god.

According to Mark, monotheism is the first commandment and not something to wait until the abomination is seen.

12:29 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear this O Israel: The Lord our God is One Lord, 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.

[Giuseppe]

not something to wait until the abomination is seen.

in absence of the mont Zion, the mountains would be a valid substitute, aren't they?

[schillingklaus]

The shema are an excessively late, anti-marcionist interpolation, proving once more the falsity of Markan prioritism.