James and John are called the "Pillars" because they supported the celestial cross of Jesus in outer space

[Giuseppe]

Only so I can explain:

• why they want the first places "in the glory" of Jesus

• why their desire of first places "in the glory" is reiterated in their presence at the Transfiguration

• why their desire is satisfied insofar they are the two thieves.

So originally the myth assumed that Jesus, crucified in outer space, had at his left and right respectively James and John, called accordingly the 'Pillars'.

[Giuseppe]

So Simon Peter is Simon of Cyrene insofar also Simon Peter is a "Pillar" of his own right: he bears the cross, i.e. he supports the cross.

Therefore the entire gang is formed by mythical Pillars, i.e. supporters of the celestial cross in outer space.

[Giuseppe]

The fact that James and John have been killed by Herod, according to Acts, is possibly a trace of the fact that, in the original story that euhemerized Jesus, a "king" (the same king of the Ascension of Isaiah?) crucified Jesus and James and John.

By the time Jesus was connected with Pilate, the legend about James and John killed by Herod had been already formed, so two substitutes were found to replace them on the crosses: the two thieves.

[lclapshaw]

There is no cross anywhere in early XCanity. Just stauros.

[Giuseppe]

There is no cross anywhere in early XCanity. Just stauros.

Good remark: per se, something very similar to a "Pillar".

So there would be in the original myth well three stauroi.


Were James and John crucified spiritually "with Christ" in the same way Paul was ?

I prefer to think about the role of supporters, i.e. assistants: they comforted their Lord during his fatal agony in outer space.

As reaction to this legend pro-Pillars, the paulinist 'Mark' would have them curse (and not comfort) Jesus while they were crucified with him.

[lclapshaw]

Stauros (pole) kinda bones your Celestial Cross doesn't it?

[MrMacSon]

There's a few possible older memes or tropes that might have contributed to early- or even pre- Christian thought or concepts

For example, perhaps (1) the pillars in Exodus 17:12:

8 The Amalekites came and attacked the Israelites at Rephidim. 9 Moses said to Joshua/Iesous, “Choose some of our men and go out to fight the Amalekites. Tomorrow I will stand on top of the hill with the staff of God in my hands.”

10 So Joshua fought the Amalekites as Moses had ordered, and Moses, Aaron and Hur went to the top of the hill. 11 As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning. 12 When Moses’ hands grew tired, they took a stone and put it under him and he sat on it. Aaron and Hur held his hands up—one on one side, one on the other—so that his hands remained steady till sunset. 13 So Joshua/Iesous overcame the Amalekite army with the sword.

14 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua/Iesous hears it, because I will completely blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven.”

15 Moses built an altar and called it The Lord is my Banner. 16 .. hands were lifted up to the throne of the Lord ...

(2) The cross of Plato, as related by Justin Martyr:

First Apology 60

And the physiological discussion concerning the Son of God in the Timaeus of Plato, where he says, "He placed him crosswise in the universe," he borrowed in like manner from Moses; for in the writings of Moses it is related how at that time, when the Israelites went out of Egypt and were in the wilderness, they fell in with poisonous beasts, both vipers and asps, and every kind of serpent, which slew the people; and that Moses, by the inspiration and influence of God, took brass, and made it into the figure of a cross, and set it in the holy tabernacle, and said to the people, "If ye look to this figure, and believe, ye shall be saved thereby."

And when this was done, it is recorded that the serpents died, and it is handed down that the people thus escaped death.

Which things Plato reading, and not accurately understanding, and not apprehending that it was the figure of the cross, but taking it to be a placing crosswise, he said that the power next to the first God was placed crosswise in the universe.

And as to his speaking of a third, he did this because he read, as we said above, that which was spoken by Moses, "that the Spirit of God moved over the waters." For he gives the second place to the Logos which is with God, who he said was placed crosswise in the universe; and the third place to the Spirit who was said to be borne upon the water, saying, "And the third around the third."

And hear how the Spirit of prophecy signified through Moses that there should be a conflagration.

(Justin is invoking and elaborating on an account about Moses from Numbers 21, albeit misrepresenting Numbers 21:8-9 in doing so: new midrashim.)


Besides Plato's Timaeus, there's

Plato's Republic, bk II, 361-2:

“ those who commend injustice above justice...will say is this: that such being his disposition the just man will have to endure the lash, the rack, chains, the branding-iron in his eyes, and finally, after all manner of suffering, he will be crucified, and so will learn his lesson that not to be but to seem just is what we ought to desire ... ”

(It'd be good to know the Greek for all these passages)

And Justin Martyr in Dialogue 59-60 says, in reply to Trypho's

And Trypho replied, “Now, then, render us the proof that this man who you say was crucified and ascended into heaven is the Christ of God. For you have sufficiently proved by means of the Scriptures previously quoted by you, that it is declared in the Scriptures that Christ must suffer, and come again with glory, and receive the eternal kingdom over all the nations, every kingdom being made subject to Him: now show us that this man is He.”

And I replied, “It has been already proved, sirs, to those who have ears, even from the facts which have been conceded by you; but that you may not think me at a loss, and unable to give proof of what you ask, as I promised, I shall do so at a fitting place. At present, I resume the consideration of the subject which I was discussing.

60
“The mystery, then, of the lamb which God enjoined to be sacrificed as the passover, was a type of Christ; with whose blood, in proportion to their faith in Him, they anoint their houses, i.e., themselves, who believe on Him ... that lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb, which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb.

And the two goats which were ordered to be offered during the fast, of which one was sent away as the scape [goat], and the other sacrificed, were similarly declarative of the two appearances of Christ: the first, in which the elders of your people, and the priests, having laid hands on Him and put Him to death, sent Him away as the scape [goat]; and His second appearance, because in the same place in Jerusalem you shall recognise Him whom you have dishonoured, and who was an offering for all sinners willing to repent, and keeping the fast which Isaiah speaks of, loosening the terms of the violent contracts, and keeping the other precepts, likewise enumerated by him, and which I have quoted, which those believing in Jesus do. And further, you are aware that the offering of the two goats, which were enjoined to be sacrificed at the fast, was not permitted to take place similarly anywhere else, but only in Jerusalem.

eta
Barnabas 12.1 might also apply

1 In like manner again He defineth concerning the cross in another prophet, who saith; And when shall these things be accomplished? saith the Lord. Whenever a tree shall be bended and stand upright, and whensoever blood shall drop from a tree. Again thou art taught concerning the cross, and Him that was to be crucified.

(and that chapter then refers to Moses and Exodus 17:12:

... the Spirit saith to the heart of Moses, that he should make a type of the cross and of Him that was to suffer ... Moses therefore pileth arms one upon another in the midst of the encounter ...

Does "pileth arms one upon another" = pillars ?


Also, see
George Latura 'Plato’s Visible God: The Cosmic Soul Reflected in the Heavens' Religions 2012, 3(3), 880-886

And
viewtopic.php?p=133217#p133217

[Giuseppe]

There's a few possible older memes or tropes that might have contributed to early- or even pre- Christian thought or concepts

For example, perhaps (1) the pillars in Exodus 17:12:

very a good remark, MrMacSon!

That passage gives us the reason about why a crucified Jesus had to be flanked to his sides by two 'assistants' or 'Pillars'.

So the two thieves episode is evidence that mythicism is correct, a genuine mythicist signature just in the stories that had euhemerized Jesus.

[MrMacSon]

There's a few possible older memes or tropes that might have contributed to early- or even pre- Christian thought or concepts
For example, perhaps (1) the pillars in Exodus 17:12

very a good remark, MrMacSon!

That passage gives us the reason about why a crucified Jesus had to be flanked to his sides by two 'assistants' or 'Pillars'.

So the two thieves episode is evidence that mythicism is correct, a genuine mythicist signature just in the stories that had euhemerized Jesus.

I was thinking Exodus 17:12 was more applicable to Justin Martyr's First Apology 60 about

the physiological discussion concerning the Son of God in the Timaeus of Plato, where he says, "He placed him crosswise in the universe," he borrowed in like manner from Moses ...

- even though Justin then seems to refer to a distorted view of a passage from Numbers 21, rather than Exodus 17:12 (and related events)

And I'm not sure the robbers can be called pillars, but they clearly have a supporting role of sorts (which (i) might be based on Justin's Dialogue 60 or something like it, in which, "declarative of the two appearances of Christ," might be related to an old version of a story; or (ii) might be an advance on the two goats story, one a scapegoat and one, like The Lamb, sacrificed or even sacrificial, as per Leviticus 16 (about The Day of Atonement):

Leviticus 16 (NIV)

1 The Lord spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron who died when they approached the Lord. 2 The Lord said to Moses: “Tell your brother Aaron that he is not to come whenever he chooses into the Most Holy Place behind the curtain in front of the atonement cover on the ark, or else he will die. For I will appear in the cloud over the atonement cover.

3 “This is how Aaron is to enter the Most Holy Place: He must first bring a young bull for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. 4 He is to put on the sacred linen tunic, with linen undergarments next to his body; he is to tie the linen sash around him and put on the linen turban. These are sacred garments; so he must bathe himself with water before he puts them on.

5 From the Israelite community he is to take two male goats for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering.

6 “Aaron is to offer the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household. 7 Then he is to take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 8 He is to cast lots for the two goats—one lot for the Lord and the other for the scapegoat. 9 Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the Lord and sacrifice it for a sin offering. 10 But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.

11 “Aaron shall bring the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household, and he is to slaughter the bull for his own sin offering. 12 He is to take a censer full of burning coals from the altar before the Lord and two handfuls of finely ground fragrant incense and take them behind the curtain. 13 He is to put the incense on the fire before the Lord, and the smoke of the incense will conceal the atonement cover above the tablets of the covenant law, so that he will not die. 14 He is to take some of the bull’s blood and with his finger sprinkle it on the front of the atonement cover; then he shall sprinkle some of it with his finger seven times before the atonement cover.

15 “He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull’s blood: He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it. 16 In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the tent of meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 No one is to be in the tent of meeting from the time Aaron goes in to make atonement in the Most Holy Place until he comes out, having made atonement for himself, his household and the whole community of Israel.

18 “Then he shall come out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it. He shall take some of the bull’s blood and some of the goat’s blood and put it on all the horns of the altar. 19 He shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and to consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Israelites.

20 “When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat.

21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.

23 “Then Aaron is to go into the tent of meeting and take off the linen garments he put on before he entered the Most Holy Place, and he is to leave them there. 24 He shall bathe himself with water in the sanctuary area and put on his regular garments. Then he shall come out and sacrifice the burnt offering for himself and the burnt offering for the people, to make atonement for himself and for the people. 25 He shall also burn the fat of the sin offering on the altar.

26 “The man who releases the goat as a scapegoat must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp.

27 The bull and the goat for the sin offerings, whose blood was brought into the Most Holy Place to make atonement, must be taken outside the camp; their hides, flesh and intestines are to be burned up. 28 The man who burns them must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp.

29 “This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves] and not do any work—whether native-born or a foreigner residing among you— 30 because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins. 31 It is a day of sabbath rest, and you must deny yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance. 32 The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest is to make atonement. He is to put on the sacred linen garments 33 and make atonement for the Most Holy Place, for the tent of meeting and the altar, and for the priests and all the members of the community.

34 “This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites.”

And it was done, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Yes, the two thieves may be personifications of the goats, but that still does not mean Jesus is mythical

[Giuseppe]

There is also the question if the two thieves figured or not in the original narrative. Their function appears to be of witnesses of the real death of Jesus, against deniers (docetists). By descending in Hades with Jesus, the two thieves could confirm that he was really dead (and not ascended directly to heaven). So the presumed witnesses of a living Jesus (== James and John) are ironically reduced to witnesses of a dead Jesus.