Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

rgprice wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:12 pm

Russell Gmirkin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:25 pm While Gen. 1-11 introduces Gen. 12-50 and is quite explicitly polytheistic, in a positive way, there is no evidence of monolatry in Gen. 12-50 (unlike Exodus-Joshua where exclusive worship of Yahweh was the central feature of the religion and morality of the children of Israel). Gen. 12-50 has nothing bad to say about any of the gods; seems quite friendly to the Egyptian religious milieu, given that Joseph married the daughter of the priest of On; and has multiple altars and seemingly multiple gods in Canaan, since it is not apparent that all the deities mentioned had yet been conflated into Yahweh. Indeed, multiple gods continue to be acknowledged in Exodus-Joshua, except now these other gods (and the nations that worshipped them) are demonized, unlike in Genesis.

Right, but I think for many people this leads to an assumption that the Genesis material is older, reflecting an earlier time when the society was more polytheistic. But this is not necessarily the case. It may well be that Exodus-Joshua came first, then Genesis 12-50 was written, attempting to soften the nationalism of Exodus-Joshua, with Gen 1-11 being then written as an intro to Gen 12-50, with even broader embrace of Hellenisim.

OK, I see your line of argument. You are right, there is no validity to hypothesizing a diachronic historical trend from polytheism (via monolatry) to monotheism. The two were contemporary throughout the Graeco-Roman period, and there is nothing intrinsically more likely about the monolatry of Exodus-Joshua preceding, following, or being roughly contemporary with that of Genesis. That judgment ultimately depends on directions of literary relationships (or inter-relationships, as the case may be). I personally view Gen. 1-11, 12-50, and Exodus-Joshua as effectively contemporary, carried out by different contemporary authorial groups within a united umbrella literary project, but I'm happy with others arguing differing scenarios based on their perception of / inferences from the evidence.

BTW, thanks for your links billd89. I don't think anyone has answered where all of the uses of Elohim appear in the scriptures, i.e. at least the Pentateuch if not the general collection of the "Old Testament". Is there a good resource for identifying these?

Russell Gmirkin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:47 pm OK, I see your line of argument. You are right, there is no validity to hypothesizing a diachronic historical trend from polytheism (via monolatry) to monotheism. The two were contemporary throughout the Graeco-Roman period, and there is nothing intrinsically more likely about the monolatry of Exodus-Joshua preceding, following, or being roughly contemporary with that of Genesis. That judgment ultimately depends on directions of literary relationships (or inter-relationships, as the case may be). I personally view Gen. 1-11, 12-50, and Exodus-Joshua as effectively contemporary, carried out by different contemporary authorial groups within a united umbrella literary project, but I'm happy with others arguing differing scenarios based on their perception of / inferences from the evidence.

Certainly the writers of Gen 12-Joshua were not aware of Gen 1-11. I does seem that the wrier fo Gen 1-11 was aware of Gen 12-50 at the very least.

I haven't read it but it looks relevant to the question of Genesis 1-11's relationship with the rest of the Pentateuch:

Adam as Israel by Postell

rgprice wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:11 pm

Russell Gmirkin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:47 pm OK, I see your line of argument. You are right, there is no validity to hypothesizing a diachronic historical trend from polytheism (via monolatry) to monotheism. The two were contemporary throughout the Graeco-Roman period, and there is nothing intrinsically more likely about the monolatry of Exodus-Joshua preceding, following, or being roughly contemporary with that of Genesis. That judgment ultimately depends on directions of literary relationships (or inter-relationships, as the case may be). I personally view Gen. 1-11, 12-50, and Exodus-Joshua as effectively contemporary, carried out by different contemporary authorial groups within a united umbrella literary project, but I'm happy with others arguing differing scenarios based on their perception of / inferences from the evidence.

Certainly the writers of Gen 12-Joshua were not aware of Gen 1-11. I does seem that the wrier fo Gen 1-11 was aware of Gen 12-50 at the very least.

Josh. 24:2 knows of Terah the father of Abraham (Gen. 11:24-32). Easy to miss.

Russell Gmirkin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:48 pm

rgprice wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:11 pm

Russell Gmirkin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:47 pm OK, I see your line of argument. You are right, there is no validity to hypothesizing a diachronic historical trend from polytheism (via monolatry) to monotheism. The two were contemporary throughout the Graeco-Roman period, and there is nothing intrinsically more likely about the monolatry of Exodus-Joshua preceding, following, or being roughly contemporary with that of Genesis. That judgment ultimately depends on directions of literary relationships (or inter-relationships, as the case may be). I personally view Gen. 1-11, 12-50, and Exodus-Joshua as effectively contemporary, carried out by different contemporary authorial groups within a united umbrella literary project, but I'm happy with others arguing differing scenarios based on their perception of / inferences from the evidence.

Certainly the writers of Gen 12-Joshua were not aware of Gen 1-11. I does seem that the wrier fo Gen 1-11 was aware of Gen 12-50 at the very least.

Josh. 24:2 knows of Terah the father of Abraham (Gen. 11:24-32). Easy to miss.

Another consideration is that the genre of Toldoth or generations runs through Genesis 2-50. It suggests some continuity. The mirror structure of 10 generations before and after flood (until Abraham) also suggests a larger plan.

Right. These suggest to me that the writer of Gen 1-11 knew at least Gen 12-50, if not more, but not the other way around. This is why I say that Gen 1-11 was written last by someone who was trying to Hellenize the nationalistic narrative.

rgprice, you may find it helpful to consult:

a concordance
The Step Bible
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament
Hebräisches und aramäisches Wörterbuch zu den Texten vom Toten Meer einschließlich der Manuskripte aus der Kairoer Geniza, by Reinhard G. Kratz, Annette Steudel, and Ingo Kottsieper (eds.)

You're still imagining that Jews and Samaritans could have calculated "magical" 7 year period which had the power to absolve debts without knowing the Anno Mundi? Why is this so hard to comprehend for you? Because WE have bankruptcy provisions without magical thinking? Our bankruptcy provisions develop from ancient Jewish thinking.

Imagine what it took for an ancient to give up claims on a "1000 dollar debt." Kanye and Kyrie would say imagine what it took for a Jew to give up a thousand dollar debt. Whole lot of voodoo magic

recent post, maybe of interest, includes mention of 4QDeut-j bene ʾelohim:

https://www.thetorah.com/article/the-ta ... genesis-10