Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

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Steven Avery
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Steven Avery »

Ulan wrote:Well, I was told that this is actually a good thing. Unlike papyrus, which you are only supposed to touch with gloves, parchment gets preserved by the oils from fingers. Which means that even experts today touch them with with their bare hands.

This is an ongoing discussion, and it is true that some manuscript keepers prefer hands to gloves. Although the reasons might be a bit more complex. (Less likely to crumple a page, easier handling, glove residue, are other possibilities, it is hard to see hand-turning as a deliberate preservation method.)

There is at least one youtube of Sinaiticus being touched, and the pages turned, by bare hand.
That might be the one where the pages turn easily, smoothly, like a young manuscript.
Afaik, this degree of suppleness is never reported as occurring with supposed ancient mss other than Sinaiticus.
(With any ms. other than Sinaiticus, suspicion would immediately be huge, especially if provenance was shaky.)

This was one of the key reasons Nikolai Alexandrovich Morozov blew the whistle on the Tischendorf ms. trickery.
Later the Russians dumped the ms. on the enamored Brits.

Steven
Ulan
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Ulan »

I guess it's worse that all those visitors breathed at the manuscript. Humidity can quickly accelerate parchment aging, especially if it's very old and in a state of suspended aging.
Steven Avery
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Steven Avery »

Ulan wrote:I guess it's worse that all those visitors breathed at the manuscript. Humidity can quickly accelerate parchment aging, especially if it's very old and in a state of suspended aging.
Yet Sinaiticus is clearly super-supple and in "phenomenally good condition", as pointed out by Helen Shenton of the British Library.

So this parchment aging never occurred.

===

(You see, colouring a manuscript with lemon juice and/or herbs and tea does not actually age a manuscript.)

Steven
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JoeWallack
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
For the serious student the evidence for Sinaiticus' early date is exponentially better than any other Manuscript because of the layer of subsequent editing reflecting later and later Christian forgeries:

Codex Sinaiticus
Between the 4th and 12th centuries, seven or more correctors worked on this codex, making it one of the most corrected manuscripts in existence.[61] Tischendorf during his investigation in Petersburg enumerated 14,800 corrections only in the portion which was held in Petersburg (2/3 of the codex).[62] According to David C. Parker the full codex has about 23,000 corrections.[63] In addition to these corrections some letters were marked by dots as doubtful (e.g. ṪḢ). Corrections represent the Byzantine text-type, just like corrections in codices: Bodmer II, Regius (L), Ephraemi (C), and Sangallensis (Δ). They were discovered by E. A. Button.[64]
The better question here is why SA is desperate to discredit Sinaiticus. Obviously it's because he starts with his conclusion that it is an inferior Manuscript because of its difficult readings and then looks for evidence to support his conclusion.

In my Award winning Thread Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Internal Confirmation That 16:8 Is The Original Ending I'm going to point out that while Apologists like James Snapp (oh no he di'int) and SA (oh yes he di id) claim that it is a very small fraction of early Manuscripts that are evidence for 16:8 as original, namely Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, the opposite is true. While there are no other early Manuscripts in the class of these two, two of the next best Manuscripts, Bezae and Regius, both contain evidence supporting 16:8 as original. The many Manuscripts after Regius have relatively little External evidence weight.


Joseph
Last edited by JoeWallack on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Steven Avery
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Steven Avery »

Maestroh wrote:And for the record, he has a hidden agenda in his 'research' -.

Apparently, according to Bill Brown, to further an "agenda":

I must have gone and secretly coloured and stained all the Sinaiticus sheets with lemon juice in England!

And then I ran over to Leipzig with a new-cleansing method to get them pristine white parchment.

And both sites virtually brand-new spanking supple and young, I figured out a way to undo 1500 years of aging, crinkling, hardening, deep yellowing (not stain yellow) from heavy use.

Plus, I needed a time machine to counsel Kallinikos what to say about the Tischendorf tampering. :D

And, as I mildly defended Sinaiticus as authentic until 2013, I must have done all that the last couple of years.

========================

Ok, I am having a little fun, but this forum is savvy enough to (much of the time) try to get to the real issues. ( I give you guys real credit, at least on a topic like this one. You have done the best job of examining while also trying to find counterpoint.) Here the issue is whether Sinaiticus is authentic antiquity or 1800s. The nexus of physical and historical data make it absolutely clear that the answer is 1800s.

Granted, it is very hard for the circular "deeply entrenched scholarship" fellows to even think outside their accepted paradigms. Everyone today "knows" Sinaiticus is authentic and Tischendorf just happened to run into the "too good to be true" no-provenance antiquity ms. in Sinai, something that all the other hunters had totally missed! After all, the James Keith Elliott book explained everything. :lol: Even the edgier fellows (David Trobisch, one or two others who really are ahead of the curve) find it very hard to get out of the box. That is why the breakthrough is just as likely to come from journalists and historians as from textual shmexperts. The scientists can hardly help, because they are kept at a distance, especially after the planned 2015 tests were cancelled.

========================

And please remember to watch:

Sinaiticus Coincidences? - David W. Daniels - Feb, 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_4WdDG-smU
17 minutes. Watch and enjoy. You feedback welcome.

Steven
Ulan
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Ulan »

Steven Avery wrote:
Ulan wrote:I guess it's worse that all those visitors breathed at the manuscript. Humidity can quickly accelerate parchment aging, especially if it's very old and in a state of suspended aging.
Yet Sinaiticus is clearly super-supple and in "phenomenally good condition", as pointed out by Helen Shenton of the British Library.

So this parchment aging never occurred.

===

(You see, colouring a manuscript with lemon juice and/or herbs and tea does not actually age a manuscript.)

Steven
So who did the tests on the manuscript to demonstrate this alleged lemon juice/herbs/tea business? I guess nobody. It's all speculation.
Steven Avery
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Steven Avery »

Ulan wrote:So who did the tests on the manuscript to demonstrate this alleged lemon juice/herbs/tea business? I guess nobody. It's all speculation.

Three are major component elements and we end up with trivially easy deduction.

===================

KALLINIKOS 'CALLED SHOTS' OF LEMON-JUICE TAMPERING

1) The report a bit after 1860 from Sinai that the manuscript had been tampered in the 1850s with lemon-juice given by Kallinikos. This would be the section that went to St. Petersburg as the Leipzig section had left in 1844. Note that at this time very few had seen the ms, so accurate reports from Sinai have special authority and pizazz and significance. In fact, few had seen the ms. until the pictures of 2009, and those who did handle it were usually in the employ of the owners, so there was little incentive to raise questions, or even let out the salient information that would lead to questions. Kallinikos made a number of statements about Tischendorf and the manuscript, every one of which we know today is accurate and consistent with on-site experience. The video above touches on some of these coincidences.

MEANS, MOTIVE and OPPORTUNITY plus HISTORY/PROVENANCE and CHARACTER

2) Three main methods historically of tampering are lemon-juice, tea and herbs.
Means, motive and opportunity existed for this manuscript crime.
Tischendorf was well connected at the monastery in the 1850s. Also he had extra private time with the ms. in Cairo in 1859 which allowed for various checks and clean-ups, including trimming the ms.
Tishendorf lied right and left about the history. The whole 'saved from burning' sham. In actuality he heisted the 1844 leaves secretly, without permission, simple theft. The elaborate lying schema is consistent with untoward practices. He also has a documented history of ms. theft. And he had a lot to gain or loss in completing the heist, ergo the 1859 lies about borrowing the ms (as also called by Kallinikos.)
The "poof provenance", appearing unexpectably in Sinai, gives us nothing before 1844. A non-provenance unique among the major ancient NT ms. group. Various ms. hunters and adventurers having been in St. Catherine's in Sinai in the preceding years and nobody saw or was told of this ms.

BEFORE AND AFTER

3) Leipzig was pristine white parchment (as reported by Uspensky and later Ernst von Dobschütz in 1913 and we can see today on the CSP.) The CSP shows us every page, pristine white parchment and unstained. This left Sinai was before the 1850s colouring so could not be changed. The after ms. is now at the British Library. Since 2009, we can compare the pages of the sections. And compare pages with many other ancient mss. The uneven discolouring, the rather light physical nature of the discolouring, the ms. remaining easy to turn and supple, are attributes that match tampering and not what you would see if it was a real age of 1500 years of supposed heavy use. (Morozov pegged it as a recent ms. largely because he did handle it in St. Petersburg and was not in the land of textual gaga over Tischendorf.) This condition of the ms sections and the Before and After has one good explanation -- 1850s colouring of the St. Petersburg-British-Library section.

PHENOMENALLY GOOD CONDITION

3) Both mss are in a physical condition of suppleness and youth that are consistent with 1859 British Library being artificially given the appearance of age. And not consistent with the supposed 1500 years of heavy use. Thus Morozov pegged it as much younger.

USPENSKY, SCRIVENER REPORTS

4) Uspensky corroborates that the full ms remaining in 1845 is white parchment. This went to St. Petersburg. Yet Scrivener reports it as "the vellum leaves, now almost yellow in colour" in 1864. The change occurred between 1850 (Uspensky's second visit) and the St. Petersburg delivery. The Leizpig section, every single page, was and is today pristine white parchment (matching what Uspensky saw in 1845 of the remainder.) There was no opportunity to change that, ergo.

5) Tischendorf kept the two sections separate and generally quite inaccessible. He pointed everybody to his facsimile edition, which hid the colour and staining and condition issues.

NO SCIENTIFIC TESTING
And when it was planned for Leipzig, 1915, the tests were canceled.

===================

The many coincidental evidences, including the accurate words written c. 1860, and the visible before and after of the two sections of the ms are types of amazing evidences, that blow up the cover stories. There many other coincidences and corroborations with Hermas, the 1841 Barnabas, New Finds and other areas.

Steven
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Ulan wrote:Anyway, I still think the easiest explanation for the differences is the horrible London climate. I don't think it was a good idea to bring parchment that is that old into the humid air of Britain. Cold and dry winter air in Eastern Europe was much easier on the material.
Ulan wrote:Well, I was told that this is actually a good thing. Unlike papyrus, which you are only supposed to touch with gloves, parchment gets preserved by the oils from fingers. Which means that even experts today touch them with with their bare hands.
Interesting. Thanks. It seems that you have researched the problem :)
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Steven Avery wrote:
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:Unbelievable but true: it was permitted to touch all sheets of the Codex.
Just curious, where did you read that?
The picture you showed is simply a fuzzy still.
Alexander Schick, Tischendorf und die älteste Bibel der Welt, 2015, page 180-182

The Brits paid 100.000 £ (in goods) for the Sinaiticus. But the government gave only the half. The rest was collected in the British Museum in a box next to the Codex. It was permitted to touch the Codex so that the people should give a lot of cash.
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Steven Avery wrote:This post has a bit about the vain-glorious Tischendorf.

pages age at different rates?
viewtopic.php?p=45894#p45894

Here you can read a bit about his propensity for manuscript theft.

the theft and mutliation of manuscripts
http://www.purebibleforum.com/showthread.php?t=91

However, it is a bit of a distraction here from the Codex itself. The study of the politics in the 1860s regarding the ms are quite interesting. Tischendorf got his honorary Professorship position and laurels. He was held up in getting money (far less important) because of the simple fact that he was accused of having stolen the ms.
I think it's a good question whether a MS is a forgery. The Sinaiticus should not be an exception. But I must confess that imho I think that the way you are discrediting Tischendorf is unworthy for this forum. I have not read all your informations and will not do this. But I kept an eye on a few things.
Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus

A page of Codex Ephraemi disappeared as well, and the circumstantial evidence points to Tischendorf.

“A Re-examination of Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus,” a doctoral thesis presented to the University of St. Andrews (1959)
Robert W. Lyon
http://bibletranslation.ws/down/Lyon-Codex-C-04.pdf
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... &cad=rja&u act=8&ved=0ahUKEwij5urOrMTKAhWFGD4KHXJ-BUQQFggpMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fecommons.asburysemina ry.edu%2Fjspui%2Fbitstream%2F10910%2F12819%2F1%2F1 994Lyon_R.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGEIlywlyWFelJMa-xSBoZ7tn9oQA

Quote:
At the present time the codex is made up of two hundred-eight leaves of which one hundred-forty-five are of the New Testament. When Tischendorf studied the manuscript there was one more folio, but for some unexplained reason folio 138 of the present binding - has disappeared. 1

1. That this page is missing was, apparently, first noted in 1883 at which time a note to this effect was placed in the beginning of the codex. As far as I know no one has, directly or indirectly, laid the blame for its absence on Tischendorf. p. 6
Read between the lines. Especially know, knowing how Tischendorf mangled even the Archimedes palimpsest. Here is the same information summarized in a review.

Theological Observer (1960)
John Theodore Mueller
http://www.ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/CTMT...server31-1.pdf

Quote:
In the second part of his article Dr. Lyon shows that the codex contains only 208 leaves and not 209 as is commonly stated. The manuscript had 209 leaves when Tischendorf used it, but since then folio 138, the one used for a facsimile by Tischendorf, has disappeared, though no one lays the blame for its absence on the German scholar. The present binding is according to the upper text; the original text is thoroughly out of sequence. More than a few folios were reversed when the later text was written, so that the top of a page of the sermons is the bottom of the page of the biblical text.
This is the Tischendorf edition, which should include the heisted page
http://gallica.bnf.fr/m/ark:/12148/b...8964509CE43FD1

CODEX LAUDIANUS G35 A Re-Examination of the Manuscript: A Reproduction of the Text and an Accompanying Commentary being a Thesis submitted by Otto Kenneth Walther to The University of St. Andrews in application for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy
https://research-repository.st-andre...hDThesisV1.pdf

Quote:
...R.W. Lyon in 1958 when he undertook a re-examination of Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus. At that time he pointed out that while photographic facsimiles had been produced of codices א, A, B, D, and others, only a sample page or two of the palimpsest C were available in textbooks dealing with textual criticism.
You seem to assume that Tischendorf made some kind of a facsimile of the Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (a palimpsest !?). But that was not the case. Tischendorf deciphered the Bible text and made a handwritten copy of the Codex. Day by day for two years in the library in Paris under the eyes of the librarians. This handwritten copy was the base for his printed edition.
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