Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

rgprice wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 4:48 am I didn't have that in mind when I made that statement. I was thinking about about narrative stories,

That's true. I noted for example your comment that "Acts is a contrivance" and then about the writer's "agenda" and "positioning Paul".

https://youtu.be/ADB0zQ6xcOI?t=4562

but by all means its something worth exploring. Merry Christmas!

Yes I'd agree on the need to explore all the sources.
Maybe sometime next year.

Happy Saturnalia !! Be well.
http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/Julia ... Kronia.htm

lsayre wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 10:30 am I've mentioned this before, but it is my opinion that Paul's primary mission seems to have been to deliver the astonishing revelation that the Jews are of Hagar, and the Gentiles are of Sarah.

I also believe that John picks up this ball and runs further with it, accusing the Jews of being of the Devil despite being sons of Abraham.

lsayre wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 10:30 am

mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 5:12 am Tell me, seriously and honestly: what is Paul's achievement in the light of Christianity as a whole?

I've mentioned this before, but it is my opinion that Paul's primary mission seems to have been to deliver the astonishing revelation that the Jews are of Hagar, and the Gentiles are of Sarah.

29But just as at that time the child who was born according to the flesh persecuted the child who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30But what does the scripture say? “Drive out the slave and her child; for the child of the slave will not share the inheritance with the child of the free woman.” 31So then, friends, we are children, not of the slave but of the free woman. 5 1For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery

Paul is telling the Judaics that they shouldn't reject the "gentiles". What's more, he's telling them that the latter holds the future, that the gentiles are the fulfillment of their god's promise - precisely as with Hagar and Sarah

Paul's message throughout his ramblings is: Judaics, your days are over - and he is telling that over and over again in unmistakable ways, but somehow people these days want or perhaps even need to be blind to that

lsayre wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 10:30 am I've mentioned this before, but it is my opinion that Paul's primary mission seems to have been to deliver the astonishing revelation that the Jews are of Hagar, and the Gentiles are of Sarah.

Yes, I think that's right. In addition, I think it's also related to the idea we find in Psalm 2:8 that "I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession." This may have been the source of Josephus' and Tacitus' comments about the Jews believing that a Jew was coming to rule the world.

The churches in Christ saw that Christ would rule over the Jews and the Gentiles, in fact the whole world. The James faction saw that this required the pagans to take up the law; Paul's revelation was that they are children of the Spirit/promise rather than of the flesh/law. To be under the law was bondage!

Thus his analogy about Hagar (whose child was of the flesh of Abraham) and Sarah (whose child was of the promise to Abraham), which are allegorical of two covenants: one to bondage (being under the law) and one to freedom (being of the Spirit)

I think it is important to note that Paul was writing to the Galatians, may of whom were probably Gentiles who were wondering about whether they needed to follow the Jewish law:

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

By comparing following the law to being in bondage to the law, Paul is apparently criticising the James/Peter faction, which required some adherence to some part of the Jewish law, though it might not have been anything more than circumcision. Paul pushing that was his greatest contribution to the Christianity that quickly spread throughout the Mediterranean.

But of course Paul was utterly wrong. And therefore so was John. And thus the very foundation of Christianity as revealed by Paul completely collapses. Zechariah 8:23 states (via inference) that at the end of days the Gentile nations will suddenly come to realize that all along it was the Jews whom they have perpetually made to suffer who are of Sarah, and they will both come to and cling to the Jews and humbly cry out: "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.". Certainly then, the Jews are not of Hagar and/or of the Devil. And the Gentiles will at that juncture realize that all along it was the Jews that were the "Suffering Servant", and not some fabricated Jesus character.

Nice discussion about Galatians 4, and I would point out that this is another passage that appears to be post-First Jewish-Roman War.


This is the condition of Jerusalem after the war.

The main Christian problem is one of reading the NT first, accepting it as fully superior to, and in effect overturning and supplanting the old, and then for good measure back-feeding the NT into the 'so-called' Old Testament (with all credit to Marcion here) through a New Testament tinted (or tainted) lens, with outright intent to massage, alter, and correct it as necessary. Paul got that ball rolling, and it has rolled ever sense. He could never have pulled the wool over the eyes of the Jews, who most likely never encountered a Jesus, so he took his Sarah and Hagar and Jesus shell game elsewhere.

rgprice wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:17 am Nice discussion about Galatians 4, and I would point out that this is another passage that appears to be post-First Jewish-Roman War.

25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

This is the condition of Jerusalem after the war.

Could that not refer to slavery to the law? Or, from a pre-war gnostic perspective, slavery to a lesser god?