Page 4 of 4
Re: Pauline letters post-war?
Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:37 am
by mlinssen
You will love van Maanen Giuseppe, he has endless lists of all these inconsistencies - and is as shy as I am in pointing them out
Re: Pauline letters post-war?
Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:42 am
by Giuseppe
mlinssen wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:37 am
You will love van Maanen Giuseppe, he has endless lists of all these inconsistencies - and is as shy as I am in pointing them out
I can't wait to translate personally your future English translation of Van Manen in Italian, so that I can appreciate it even more
Re: Pauline letters post-war?
Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:46 am
by lclapshaw
rgprice wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:09 am
Here is a passage that suggests the letters are pre-war:
2 Cor 11
30 If I have to boast, I will boast of what pertains to my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, He who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the ethnarch under Aretas the king was guarding the city of the Damascenes in order to seize me, 33 and I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and so escaped his hands.
This is presumably referring to Aretas IV, who ruled from 9 to 40.
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1752-aretas
This would seem to pretty solidly date Paul's ministry and the letters to a period shortly after the reign of Pilate. So, what are the issue with this passage and how to scholars handle it?
There are many of us that think Aretas lll is the better candidate.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5464
Re: Pauline letters post-war?
Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:52 am
by schillingklaus
Those scholars are idiots who believe in Markan Priotitism and Paulinee Authenticism. More critical scholars like Stuart Waugh realize that the epistles are late piecemeal, and the Arretas thing is a post-marcionic interpolations.
Re: Pauline letters post-war?
Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:56 am
by schillingklaus
Van Manen was one of teh few scholars able to finally see the falsity of Markan Prioritism and Pauline Authenticism. Uncritical scholars lack this ability.
Re: Pauline letters post-war?
Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:04 am
by Giuseppe
I read (via Deepl) this:
Diese Kenntnis hat sich durch die persönliche Berührung, in welche er durch die Verfolgung der Christen mit letzteren kam, nur vertiefen können. Aber wie steht es mit dem Wann? Nach 2. Cor. XI., 32 floh Paulus aus Damaskus, um nicht durch den Ethnarchen des die Stadt belagernden Königs Aretas; ge- fangen zu werden. Aus Gal. I., 17 gewinnt man den Ein- druck, daſs sein Aufenthalt in Damaskus selbst nur ein sehr kurzer gewesen sein kann. Nun hat aber eine Be- lagerung von Damaskus nur in den Jahren 37—39 statt- finden können, wie man aus einer Vergleichung von Josephus (Jüdische Altertümer 18, 5, 3) mit Dio Cas- sius 59, 9, 12 ersieht. Nach Josephus rüstete sich Vitellius im Jahre 37 zu einem Feldzug gegen Aretas;. Nach Dio Cassius fand bereits im Jahre 39 eine Teilung Arabiens durch Caligula statt. Die Bekehrung Pauli muſs also in den Jahren 37–39 stattgefunden haben, also in einer dem Todesjahre des Herrn noch sehr nahen Zeit.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... &q1=aretas
Re: Pauline letters post-war?
Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:22 am
by maryhelena
rgprice wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:09 am
Here is a passage that suggests the letters are pre-war:
2 Cor 11
30 If I have to boast, I will boast of what pertains to my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, He who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the ethnarch under Aretas the king was guarding the city of the Damascenes in order to seize me, 33 and I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and so escaped his hands.
This is presumably referring to Aretas IV, who ruled from 9 to 40.
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1752-aretas
This would seem to pretty solidly date Paul's ministry and the letters to a period shortly after the reign of Pilate. So, what are the issue with this passage and how to scholars handle it?
viewtopic.php?t=8132
Carrier, Aretas and Damascus
Re: Pauline letters post-war?
Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:50 am
by lclapshaw
maryhelena wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:22 am
rgprice wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:09 am
Here is a passage that suggests the letters are pre-war:
2 Cor 11
30 If I have to boast, I will boast of what pertains to my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, He who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the ethnarch under Aretas the king was guarding the city of the Damascenes in order to seize me, 33 and I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and so escaped his hands.
This is presumably referring to Aretas IV, who ruled from 9 to 40.
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1752-aretas
This would seem to pretty solidly date Paul's ministry and the letters to a period shortly after the reign of Pilate. So, what are the issue with this passage and how to scholars handle it?
viewtopic.php?t=8132
Carrier, Aretas and Damascus
Ah, yes, good. That was the thread I was looking for.
Re: Pauline letters post-war?
Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:13 am
by Giuseppe
The escaping from Damascus is not found in Marcion:
and in 2Cor 12:26, a chapter missing in Marcion's 2Cor, Paul speaks of the perils of the city, after having mentioned in 2Cor 11:32 (another chapter missing in Marcion's 2Cor) the city of Damascus.
http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/2022/ ... up-on.html
Re: Pauline letters post-war?
Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:36 am
by rgprice
Is Dr. Vinzent being cautious here? It seems to me that 2 Cor 11 is more unattested than confirmed missing.