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Re: The Earliest Attestation of the Epistles of Paul : Jack Bull on History Valley YouTube Channel

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:29 am
by andrewcriddle
MrMacSon wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:39 am
mlinssen wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:20 am Scenario B is rather underwhelming really
  • I think it's interesting and somewhat important that someone like Jack says
    1. it's unlikely that Marcion redacted the letters of Paul (though I dunno how he can say that; other than appealing to Marcion as an honest man); and
    2. it's more likely the proto-Catholics redacted Paul's letters (or, maybe, did more-so)
    It's also noteworthy that Tertullian gives no indication of knowing the Catholic, canonical Pauline letters
Tertullian clearly knew the canonical text of Paul even if he (sensibly) does not appeal to it in his controversy with the Marcionites.

For just one example; Tertullian quotes Paul (in On the Flesh of Christ) from the early verses of Romans chapter 1
Then, again, there is Paul, who was at once both a disciple, and a master, and a witness of the selfsame Gospel; as an apostle of the same Christ, also, he affirms that Christ "was made of the seed of David, according to the flesh,"
this passage was almost certainly absent in Marcion's text.

Andrew Criddle

Re: The Earliest Attestation of the Epistles of Paul : Jack Bull on History Valley YouTube Channel

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:37 pm
by GakuseiDon
MrMacSon wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 1:26 amJack
I know. I mean, I think, I think the, the question[er] answers his own question [yeah] what I mean: this plays straight into my hands again. Now, the only thing I would say about that is that, and, again, more work needs to put on this also. When we get to Tertullian and he argues against Marcionite Paul, as far as I'm aware, I don't think he references canonical Paul as a counter. So, even Terullian, they were now dealing so much later, he's not mentioning canonical Paul.
I see that Andrew Criddle has already responded above, but Tertullian certainly references the canonical letters of Paul, and quotes them in various places. Here is Tertullian's Book 4 of Against Marcion, where he refers to Marcion complaining that Jesus's apostles themselves corrupted Jesus' teachings:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... an124.html

In the scheme of Marcion, on the contrary, the mystery of the Christian religion begins from the discipleship of Luke. Since, however, it was on its course previous to that point, it must have had its own authentic materials, by means of which it found its own way down to St. Luke; and by the assistance of the testimony which it bore, Luke himself becomes admissible. Well, but Marcion, finding the Epistle of Paul to the Galatians (wherein he rebukes even apostles) for "not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel," as well as accuses certain false apostles of perverting the gospel of Christ), labours very hard to destroy the character of those Gospels which are published as genuine and under the name of apostles, in order, forsooth, to secure for his own Gospel the credit which he takes away from them. But then, even if he censures Peter and John and James, who were thought to be pillars, it is for a manifest reason. They seemed to be changing their company from respect of persons. And yet as Paul himself "became all things to all men," that he might gain all, it was possible that Peter also might have betaken himself to the same plan of practising somewhat different from what he taught. And, in like manner, if false apostles also crept in, their character too showed itself in their insisting upon circumcision and the Jewish ceremonies. So that it was not on account of their preaching, but of their conversation, that they were marked by St. Paul, who would with equal impartiality have marked them with censure, if they had erred at all with respect to God the Creator or His Christ. Each several case will therefore have to be distinguished. When Marcion complains that apostles are suspected (for their prevarication and dissimulation) of having even depraved the gospel, he thereby accuses Christ, by accusing those whom Christ chose. If, then, the apostles, who are censured simply for inconsistency of walk, composed the Gospel in a pure form, but false apostles interpolated their true record; and if our own copies have been made from these, where will that genuine text of the apostle's writings be found which has not suffered adulteration? Which was it that enlightened Paul, and through him Luke? It is either completely blotted out, as if by some deluge--being obliterated by the inundation of falsifiers--in which case even Marcion does not possess the true Gospel; or else, is that very edition which Marcion alone possesses the true one, that is, of the apostles? How, then, does that agree with ours, which is said not to be (the work) of apostles, but of Luke? Or else, again, if that which Marcion uses is not to be attributed to Luke simply because it does agree with ours (which, of course, is, also adulterated in its title), then it is the work of apostles. Our Gospel, therefore, which is in agreement with it, is equally the work of apostles, but also adulterated in its title.

The interesting points from this are:

1. Marcion appears to have accepted that the Gospels were written by apostles of Jesus or their followers. In particular, that Luke wrote after Paul, with all the implications that that timing suggested. I don't know how you get a Paul writing around 80 CE from that. (ETA: though rereading Jack's point I realise now he isn't claiming that Paul wrote in the 80s)

2. Marcion appears to suggest that Jesus' apostles themselves "depraved the gospel". If that's the case, then it shows there was no cohesive Christianity from the very start. Yes, I know that that idea is nothing new for this board, but it does seem that people like Jack work on the proposal that there were two types of streams, with one diverging from the other at some point (Jack's Scenario A and Scenario B): Marcion and proto-orthodox.

(A shout-out to MrMacSon for the transcript! :notworthy: )

Re: The Earliest Attestation of the Epistles of Paul : Jack Bull on History Valley YouTube Channel

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:40 pm
by MrMacSon
andrewcriddle wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:29 am
MrMacSon wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:39 am
  • I think it's interesting and somewhat important that someone like Jack says
    1. it's unlikely that Marcion redacted the letters of Paul (though I dunno how he can say that; other than appealing to Marcion as an honest man); and
    2. it's more likely the proto-Catholics redacted Paul's letters (or, maybe, did more-so)
    It's also noteworthy that Tertullian gives no indication of knowing the Catholic, canonical Pauline letters
Tertullian clearly knew the canonical text of Paul even if he (sensibly) does not appeal to it in his controversy with the Marcionites.

For just one example; Tertullian quotes Paul (in On the Flesh of Christ) from the early verses of Romans chapter 1
Then, again, there is Paul, who was at once both a disciple, and a master, and a witness of the selfsame Gospel; as an apostle of the same Christ, also, he affirms that Christ "was made of the seed of David, according to the flesh,"
this passage was almost certainly absent in Marcion's text.

Andrew Criddle

Cheers Andrew. G'Don has clarified the context -
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:37 pm
Jack Bull wrote: ... more work needs to put on this also. When we get to Tertullian and [when] he argues against Marcionite Paul, as far as I'm aware, I don't think he references canonical Paul as a counter. So, even Terullian, they were now dealing so much later, he's not mentioning canonical Paul.
- and highlighted my generalisation was wrong (and highlights I had not remembered my own reference to Tertullian citing the canonical Romans 1:3 in On the Flesh of Christ in another thread).

I guess this also raises the prospect of when Tertullian wrote Against Marcion relative to On the Flesh of Christ.

AFAIK, the only complete versions of attempted reconstructions of the Marcionite versions of Paul's letters so far are by
  • Ulrich Schmid, Marcion und sein Apostolos, 1995; and
  • Jason BeDuhn, The First New Testament: Marcion's Scriptural Canon, 2013

    ... fairly strong evidence exists that Romans once circulated in two, three, or four alternative forms ... [p.221]

BeDuhn makes the point later on p.295 [bold original i.e. BeDuhn's]:

Rom 1.1-7a is unattested. There must have been something equivalent to v.1. We would certainly expect Tertullian and Epiphanius to cite vv.2-3 against Marcion had they been present in the Apostolikon; yet why do they not explicitly note an omission? They would have had the opportunity to do so either here or elsewhere where they discuss Paul's attribution of Davidic ancestry to Jesus (cf. Tertullian Carn. Chr. 22.2; Prax 27.11)

I'm not sure whether BeDuhn means, "We would certainly expect Tertullian and Epiphanius to cite vv.2-3 against Marcion had they been present in the Apostolikon" in terms of Christology; or, whether he meant, "We would certainly expect Tertullian and Epiphanius to cite vv.2-3 against Marcion had they [not] been present in the Apostolikon" (?)

BeDuhn then obscurely comments about "Origen fail[ing] to say Marcion's text lacked the reference to David" in Comm. John 10.21-4 wrt to the birth stories.

BeDuhn finishes that section with

The evidence of Gk ms G is suggestive,* reading directly from v.1a to 5v in an apparent coherent redaction: "Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ, called (to be) an emissary / among the nations of behalf of his name." [p.295]

* I'm not sure if he's saying Gk ms G is suggestive of a redaction or he's referring to the previous two sentences:

Not that Origen appears to distinguish Marcion's views from the docetists [apparently wrt the birth stories(??)]. Perhaps some reconsideration of Marcion's christology is needed. The evidence of Gk ms G is suggestive, reading directly from v.1a to 5v in an apparent coherent redaction: "Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ, called (to be) an emissary / among the nations of behalf of his name."


Re: The Earliest Attestation of the Epistles of Paul : Jack Bull on History Valley YouTube Channel

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:18 pm
by MrMacSon
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:37 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 1:26 amJack
I know. I mean, I think, I think the, the question[er] answers his own question [yeah] what I mean: this plays straight into my hands again. Now, the only thing I would say about that is that, and, again, more work needs to put on this also. When we get to Tertullian and he argues against Marcionite Paul, as far as I'm aware, I don't think he references canonical Paul as a counter. So, even Terullian, they were now dealing so much later, he's not mentioning canonical Paul.
I see that Andrew Criddle has already responded above, but Tertullian certainly references the canonical letters of Paul, and quotes them in various places. Here is Tertullian's Book 4 of Against Marcion, where he refers to Marcion complaining that Jesus's apostles themselves corrupted Jesus' teachings: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... an124.html

The interesting points from this are:

1. Marcion appears to have accepted that the Gospels were written by apostles of Jesus or their followers. In particular, that Luke wrote after Paul, with all the implications that that timing suggested. I don't know how you get a Paul writing around 80 CE from that. (ETA: though rereading Jack's point I realise now he isn't claiming that Paul wrote in the 80s)

2. Marcion appears to suggest that Jesus' apostles themselves "depraved the gospel". If that's the case, then it shows there was no cohesive Christianity from the very start. Yes, I know that that idea is nothing new for this board, but it does seem that people like Jack work on the proposal that there were two types of streams, with one diverging from the other at some point (Jack's Scenario A and Scenario B): Marcion and proto-orthodox.

(A shout-out to MrMacSon for the transcript! :notworthy: )

Thanks! That transcription took way longer than I expected, and I kinda missed the nuance of a key point I wanted to capture.

That excerpt of Tertullian' Against Marcion, book IV, is interesting. Here it is highlighted differently:

Against Marcion, IV,3:


In the scheme of Marcion, on the contrary, the mystery of the Christian religion begins from the discipleship of 'Luke'. Since, however, it was on its course previous to that point, it must have had its own authentic materials, by means of which it found its own way down [eventually] to St. Luke; and by the assistance of the testimony which it bore, Luke himself becomes admissible. Well, but Marcion, finding the Epistle of Paul to the Galatians (wherein he rebukes even apostles) for "not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel," as well as accuses certain false apostles of perverting the gospel of Christ), labours very hard to destroy the character of those Gospels which are published as genuine and under the name of apostles, in order, forsooth, to secure for his own Gospel the credit which he takes away from them. But then, even if he censures Peter and John and James, who were thought to be pillars, it is for a manifest reason. They seemed to be changing their company from respect of persons. And yet as Paul himself "became all things to all men," that he might gain all, it was possible that Peter also might have betaken himself to the same plan of practising somewhat different from what he taught. And, in like manner, if false apostles also crept in, their character too showed itself in their insisting upon circumcision and the Jewish ceremonies. So that it was not on account of their preaching, but of their conversation, that they were marked by St. Paul, who would with equal impartiality have marked them with censure, if they had erred at all with respect to God the Creator or His Christ. Each several case will therefore have to be distinguished. When Marcion complains that apostles are suspected (for their prevarication and dissimulation) of having even depraved the gospel, he thereby accuses Christ, by accusing those whom Christ chose. If, then, the apostles, who are censured simply for inconsistency of walk, composed the Gospel in a pure form, but false apostles interpolated their true record; and if our own copies have been made from these, where will that genuine text of the apostle's writings be found which has not suffered adulteration? Which was it that enlightened Paul, and through him Luke? It is either completely blotted out, as if by some deluge--being obliterated by the inundation of falsifiers--in which case even Marcion does not possess the true Gospel; or else, is that very edition which Marcion alone possesses the true one, that is, of the apostles? How, then, does that agree with ours, which is said not to be (the work) of apostles, but of Luke? Or else, again, if that which Marcion uses is not to be attributed to Luke simply because it does agree with ours (which, of course, is, also adulterated in its title), then it is the work of apostles. Our Gospel, therefore, which is in agreement with it, is equally the work of apostles, but also adulterated in its title.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... an124.html


That last section can be 'cut' a few ways eg.


... ours (which, of course, is, also adulterated in its title) ..//.. Our Gospel, therefore, which is in agreement with [Marcion's 'edition'], is equally the work of apostles,* but also adulterated in its title.


I think "in its title" is a red-herring strawman to obfuscate

* Tertullian is essentially saying there were generations or stage of apostles: he's explicitly saying there were 'their apostles' and 'our apostles' but he's trying to make it out as if there were only the apostles: his 'true' apostles

Re: The Earliest Attestation of the Epistles of Paul : Jack Bull on History Valley YouTube Channel

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:32 pm
by MrMacSon
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:37 pm 2. Marcion appears to suggest that Jesus' apostles themselves "depraved the gospel". If that's the case, then it shows there was no cohesive Christianity from the very start. Yes, I know that that idea is nothing new for this board, but it does seem that people like Jack work on the proposal that there were two types of streams, with one diverging from the other at some point (Jack's Scenario A and Scenario B): Marcion and proto-orthodox.
  • Jacks Scenario A and Scenario B proposals are only for what happened to the Pauline letters in Marcion's hands

Re: The Earliest Attestation of the Epistles of Paul : Jack Bull on History Valley YouTube Channel

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:50 am
by GakuseiDon
MrMacSon wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:18 pmThat last section can be 'cut' a few ways eg.


... ours (which, of course, is, also adulterated in its title) ..//.. Our Gospel, therefore, which is in agreement with [Marcion's 'edition'], is equally the work of apostles,* but also adulterated in its title.


I think "in its title" is a red-herring strawman to obfuscate

* Tertullian is essentially saying there were generations or stage of apostles: he's explicitly saying there were 'their apostles' and 'our apostles' but he's trying to make it out as if there were only the apostles: his 'true' apostles
I think Tertullian is saying that both Marcion and Tertullian have the same set of apostles, but that the Gospels had the authors' names included (e.g. "according to Mark"), while Marcion's Gospel wasn't named. For Marcion, the proto-orthodox added in the names after the names of the apostles or their followers; for Tertullian, Marcion doesn't say who wrote it. But as Marcion complained (according to Tertullian) that the apostles started to deviate from the teachings of Christ from the start, how can Marcion know that he had the 'true' Gospel? At least that's how I read it.

Re: The Earliest Attestation of the Epistles of Paul : Jack Bull on History Valley YouTube Channel

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:55 am
by GakuseiDon
MrMacSon wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:32 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:37 pm 2. Marcion appears to suggest that Jesus' apostles themselves "depraved the gospel". If that's the case, then it shows there was no cohesive Christianity from the very start. Yes, I know that that idea is nothing new for this board, but it does seem that people like Jack work on the proposal that there were two types of streams, with one diverging from the other at some point (Jack's Scenario A and Scenario B): Marcion and proto-orthodox.
  • Jacks Scenario A and Scenario B proposals are only for what happened to the Pauline letters in Marcion's hands
Yes, though both Scenarios assume that there was a genuine set of letters that ended up in the hands of the proto-orthodox and which Marcion corrupted (Scenario A), or that were published as-is by Marcion and then corrupted by the proto-orthodox (Scenario B).

But perhaps the letters were corrupted before they even reached Marcion and the proto-orthodox, so both sides had genuine cause to think they had the original set (Scenario GDon!). Given the accusations that corruptions in the texts were very early, I think it likely that that scenario is more likely.

Jack said:
Jack wrote:The way I lean is more towards ‘Scenario B’ and the reason why is this:

If ‘Scenario A’ is to be believed, the question is, ‘why does no-one attest these epistles and where are they for 70 years’ plus, if the traditional dating is believed to be true?’ Now, what I mean by that is: although one could level this argument against the Marcionite epistles, again, that claim can only be levelled if the traditional dating is true.
Perhaps Jack can be forgiven as he is presenting his train of thought on the spot while speaking, but we can't know that "no-one attested" to Paul's epistles before Marcion. Certainly none of the extant material attest to it, if that's what Jack meant. But we just don't have a lot of material from that time period. No-one actually writes that Paul didn't write letters. And since Paul is mentioned as one of Christ's apostles in 1 Clement and in at least one of the letters of Ignatius (along with Peter), it speaks to his authority in the early church. It's certainly reason enough to forge letters in his name later on.

Jack said:
Jack wrote:What's more interesting in the case of Justin though, more than anything, is it doesn't even mention Paul's name. That's the bit that really surprises me. If he doesn't mention the letters - we've been through, this doesn't always happen - but the fact doesn't even call him out.,And, again, you're only left with sort of four possible scenarios, right?

One, Justin did not know Paul please have a day off

Two, Justin knew Paul and chose not to use him

Three, Justin knew Paul and disagrees with him outright; or

Four, Justin knew Paul and used him, uh, you know, informally.

Now, I would actually present maybe a fifth option here: I think that one of the reasons Justin stays away from Paul is because he's associated with Marcion. I think that's the reason.
We have three extant letters generally attributed to Justin Martyr: First Apology, Second Apology and Dialogue with Trypho. The first two were written to pagans, and Justin doesn't mention the names of any apostles much less Paul. That's not unexpected. What weight would the names have meant to the pagans?

Justin does refer to Peter and John in passing in Dialogue with Trypho so might find occasion to refer to Paul. But the case needs to be made, not assumed. I don't think there is enough evidence to conclude one way or the other that Justin knew of Paul.

Re: The Earliest Attestation of the Epistles of Paul : Jack Bull on History Valley YouTube Channel

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:53 am
by MrMacSon
Tertullian's Against Marcion book 1 mentions Paul only a few times

Against Marcion I,20:

... the opposite side...allege that Marcion did not so much innovate on the rule (of faith) by his separation of the law and the gospel, as restore it after it had been previously adulterated. O Christ, most enduring Lord, who didst bear so many years with this interference with Thy revelation, until Marcion forsooth came to Thy rescue! Now they adduce the case of Peter himself, and the others, who were pillars of the apostolate, as having been blamed by Paul for not walking uprightly, according to the truth of the gospel: that very Paul indeed, who, being yet in the mere rudiments of grace, and trembling, in short, lest he should have run or were still running in vain, then for the first time held intercourse with those who were apostles before himself. Therefore because, in the eagerness of his zeal against Judaism as a neophyte, he thought that there was something to be blamed in their conduct - even the promiscuousness of their conversation - but afterwards was himself to become in his practice all things to all men, that he might gain all ...

Book 2 doesn't mention Paul.

Book 3 mentions him once:

Against Marcion III,14:

Now the Apostle John, in the Apocalypse, describes a sword which proceeded from the mouth of God as "a doubly sharp, two-edged one." This may be understood to be the Divine Word, who is doubly edged with the two testaments of the law and the gospel: sharpened with wisdom, hostile to the devil, arming us against the spiritual enemies of all wickedness and concupiscence, and cutting us off from the dearest objects for the sake of God's holy name. If, however, you will not acknowledge John, you have our common master Paul, who "girds our loins about with truth, and puts on us the breastplate of righteousness, and shoes us with the preparation of the gospel of peace, not of war; who bids us take the shield of faith, wherewith we may be able to quench all the fiery darts of the devil, and the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which (he says) is the word of God."


Before chapter 3 in Book 4 (in multicolour above) chapter 2 has:

Against Marcion IV,2:


Now, of the authors whom we possess, Marcion seems to have singled out Luke for his mutilating process. Luke, however, was not an apostle, but only an apostolic man; not a master, but a disciple, and so inferior to a master; at least as far subsequent to him as the apostle whom he followed - and that, no doubt, was Paul - was subsequent to the others; so that, had Marcion even published his Gospel in the name of Paul himself, the single authority of the document, destitute of all support from preceding authorities, would not be a sufficient basis for our faith.

There would be still wanted that Gospel which Paul found in existence, to which he yielded his belief, and with which he so earnestly wished his own to agree, that he actually on that account went up to Jerusalem to know and consult the apostles, "lest he should run, or had been running in vain;" in other words, that the faith which he had learned, and the gospel which he was preaching, might be in accordance with theirs. Then, at last, having conferred with the (primitive) authors, and having agreed with them touching the rule of faith, they joined their hands in fellowship, and divided their labours thenceforth in the office of preaching the gospel, so that they were to go to the Jews, and Paul to the Jews and the Gentiles. Inasmuch, therefore, as the enlightener of Luke himself desired the authority of his predecessors for both his own faith and preaching, how much more may not I require for Luke's Gospel that which was necessary for the Gospel of his master.


  1. Paul was the apostle whom Luke followed and Paul was subsequent to the others
    .
  2. Even if Marcion had published his Gospel in Paul's name, that would not have been sufficient basis for Tertullian's faith
    • "There would be still wanted that Gospel which Paul found in existence, to which he yielded his belief"
  3. Tertullian appeals to Paul going to Jerusalem to consult with the others, whom he calls 'the primitive authors, whereupon they agreed
    • "the enlightener of Luke himself desired the authority of his predecessors"

ie. Paul is important - foundational - for Tertullian


Against Marcion IV,5 has

... even Luke's form of the Gospel men usually ascribe to Paul ...


Book V starts off being facetious about Marcion admitting the Apostle Paul on board his small craft:

Against Marcion V,1:

Wherefore, O shipmaster of Pontus, if you have never taken on board your small craft any contraband goods or smuggler's cargo, if you have never thrown overboard or tampered with a freight, you are still more careful and conscientious, I doubt not, in divine things; and so I should be glad if you would inform us under what bill of lading you admitted the apostle Paul on board, who ticketed him, what owner forwarded him, who handed him to you, that so you may land him without any misgiving, lest he should turn out to belong to him, who can substantiate his claim to him by producing all his apostolic writings. He professes himself to be "an apostle"—to use his own words—"not of men, nor by man, but by Jesus Christ." Of course, anyone may make a profession concerning himself; but his profession is only rendered valid by the authority of a second person ...

Then Tertullian claims to be in the character of a disciple, and gets bolshy:


... for my own part, I appear in the character of a disciple and an inquirer; that so I may even thus both refute your belief, who have nothing to support it, and confound your shamelessness, who make claims without possessing the means of establishing them. Let there be a Christ, let there be an apostle, although of another god; but what matter? since they are only to draw their proofs out of the Testament of the Creator.

Because even the book of Genesis so long ago promised me the apostle Paul. For among the types and prophetic blessings which he pronounced over his sons, Jacob, when he turned his attention to Benjamin, exclaimed, "Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf; in the morning He shall devour the prey, and at night he shall impart nourishment." He foresaw that Paul would arise out of the tribe of Benjamin, a voracious wolf, devouring his prey in the morning: in order words, in the early period of his life he would devastate the Lord's sheep, as a persecutor of the churches; but in the evening he would give them nourishment, which means that in his declining years he would educate the fold of Christ, as the teacher of the Gentiles.

Then, again, in Saul's conduct towards David, exhibited first in violent persecution of him, and then in remorse and reparation, on his receiving from him good for evil, we have nothing else than an anticipation of Paul in Saul - belonging, too, as they did, to the same tribe - and of Jesus in David, from whom He descended according to the Virgin's genealogy. Should you, however, disapprove of these types, the Acts of the Apostles, "at all events, have handed down to me this career of Paul, which you must not refuse to accept. Thence I demonstrate that from a persecutor he became "an apostle, not of men, neither by man;" thence am I led to believe the Apostle himself; thence do I find reason for rejecting your defence of him, and for bearing fearlessly your taunt. "Then you deny the Apostle Paul."

I do not calumniate him whom I defend. I deny him, to compel you to the proof of him. I deny him, to convince you that he is mine ...


Against Marcion V,2:

Now, since the Acts of the Apostles thus agree with Paul, it becomes apparent why you reject them. It is because they declare no other God than the Creator, and prove Christ to belong to no other God than the Creator; whilst the promise of the Holy Ghost is shown to have been fulfilled in no other document than the Acts of the Apostles. Now, it is not very likely that these should be found in agreement with the apostle, on the one hand, when they described his career in accordance with his own statement; but should, on the other hand, be at variance with him when they announce the (attribute of) divinity in the Creator's Christ: as if Paul did not follow the preaching of the apostles when he received from them the prescription of not teaching the Law.

Against Marcion V,3


Accordingly, the false brethren who were the spies of their Christian liberty must be thwarted in their efforts to bring it under the yoke of their own Judaism before that Paul discovered whether his labour had been in vain, before that those who preceded him in the apostolate gave him their right hands of fellowship ...

... no one will refuse to admit that Paul preached that God and that Christ whose law he was excluding all the while, however much he allowed it, owing to the times, but which he would have had summarily to abolish if he had published a new god. Rightly, then, did Peter and James and John give their right hand of fellowship to Paul, and agree on such a division of their work, as that Paul should go to the heathen, and themselves to the circumcision. Their agreement, also, "to remember the poor" was in complete conformity with the law of the Creator, which cherished the poor and needy, as has been shown in our observations on your Gospel. It is thus certain that the question was one which simply regarded the law, while at the same time it is apparent what portion of the law it was convenient to have observed. Paul, however, censures Peter for not walking straightforwardly according to the truth of the gospel. No doubt he blames him; but it was solely because of his inconsistency in the matter of "eating," which he varied according to the sort of persons (whom he associated with) "fearing them which were of the circumcision," but not on account of any perverse opinion touching another god ...



Re: The Earliest Attestation of the Epistles of Paul : Jack Bull on History Valley YouTube Channel

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 2:18 am
by MrMacSon
MrMacSon wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:18 pm
That last section can be 'cut' a few ways eg.


... ours (which, of course, is, also adulterated in its title) ..//.. Our Gospel, therefore, which is in agreement with [Marcion's 'edition'], is equally the work of apostles,* but also adulterated in its title.


I think "in its title" is a red-herring strawman to obfuscate

* Tertullian is essentially saying there were generations or stage of apostles: he's explicitly saying there were 'their apostles' and 'our apostles' but he's trying to make it out as if there were only the apostles: his 'true' apostles

GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:50 am
I think Tertullian is saying that both Marcion and Tertullian have the same set of apostles, but that the Gospels had the authors' names included (e.g. "according to Mark"), while Marcion's Gospel wasn't named.

I still think Tertullian is referring to different sets of apostles or perhaps different degrees of claim/s to different apostles (or perhaps disciples):
GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:50 am For Marcion, the proto-orthodox added in the names after the names of the apostles or their followers
Tertullian talks about Paul being "the enlightener of Luke himself" and refers to others such as Peter as "his predecessors" who were "not walking uprightly". And Tertullian refers to himself as having the character of a disciple: there's personal hierarchies at play here or, at least, perceptions of them (and Tertullian almost certainly is doing so after Marcion has died).

However, my main point in that part of my post was not what I commented on but what I highlighted and bolded:
  • Tertullian admits that "our texts—our gospels—were also 'adulterated'."

Re: The Earliest Attestation of the Epistles of Paul : Jack Bull on History Valley YouTube Channel

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 3:09 am
by GakuseiDon
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 2:18 amHowever, my main point in that part of my post was not what I commented on but what I highlighted and bolded:
  • Tertullian admits that "our texts—our gospels—were also 'adulterated'."
I think Tertullian is making an argument based on his view of what Marcion is claiming, rather than making an admission that the proto-orthodox Gospels' titles were adulterated:

... if that which Marcion uses is not to be attributed to Luke simply because it does agree with ours (which, of course, is, also adulterated in its title), then it is the work of apostles. Our Gospel, therefore, which is in agreement with it, is equally the work of apostles, but also adulterated in its title.

In other words, at worst, the proto-orthodox Gospel of Luke is in agreement with the one that Marcion is using, even if the name of Luke has been added to it by the proto-orthodox (note that Marcion's Gospel apparently had no attribution at all). Either way, that Gospel is still the work of apostles. This is part of a larger argument where Tertullian argues that the proto-orthodox version of Luke is older thus the original version:

With regard, then, to the pending question, of Luke's Gospel (so far as its being the common property of ourselves and Marcion enables it to be decisive of the truth,) that portion of it which we alone receive is so much older than Marcion, that Marcion, himself once believed it, when in the first warmth of faith he contributed money to the Catholic church, which along with himself was afterwards rejected, when he fell away from our truth into his own heresy. What if the Marcionites have denied that he held the primitive faith amongst ourselves, in the face even of his own letter? What, if they do not acknowledge the letter? They, at any rate, receive his Antitheses; and more than that, they make ostentatious use of them. Proof out of these is enough for me. For if the Gospel, said to be Luke's which is current amongst us (we shall see whether it be also current with Marcion), is the very one which, as Marcion argues in his Antitheses, was interpolated by the defenders of Judaism, for the purpose of such a conglomeration with it of the law and the prophets as should enable them out of it to fashion their Christ, surely he could not have so argued about it, unless he had found it (in such a form). No one censures things before they exist, when he knows not whether they will come to pass. Emendation never precedes the fault.

If Marcion really had written a letter explaining that his version of Luke had been interpolated, then that adds to the argument that Marcion didn't have access to an original one. (Though I tend to not trust Tertullian in what he reports about Marcion)