Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

mlinssen wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:57 pm Right. So we're back at where we started: I fail to see any Judaism in the NT - and perhaps I should have added "save for the obvious parodies (meant to be taken seriously) by Mark and Matthew, and Paul"

Are the parables of Enoch, the self glorification hymn, the apocryphon of Levi, the apocalypse of Ezra, 2 Enoch, the book of Tobit or Judith parody books for you?
Parodic in relation to which Judaism ? Your anachronistic vision of a monolithic Judaism before Yabneh?

mlinssen wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:57 pm all of that impossible to combine with the alien judaisation that we find in the NT: false and fake prophecies,

False prophecies in relation to which form of Judaism?
The books I mentioned to you thought that the book of Isaiah was a prophetic book and that the servant of Isaiah would be the Messiah.
The Qumran sect also practiced pesharim with the prophets. Did the Qumran sect practice a false Judaism and fake prophecies ?

mlinssen wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:57 pm A weak rhetoric Messiah instead of a warrior who crushes Israel's enemies,

The return of Jesus for the judgment (based on the eschatology of Isaiah) in Paul and Mark is announced as glorious, isn't it ?

mlinssen wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:57 pm and most of all: rejection of the Torah at large (despite the mumblings of Paul who buries it all under a ton of words without being any decisive in any way)

Paul does not preach the end of the Torah, he preaches the uselessness of the Torah for non-Jewish Christians who believe in Jesus.
This is certainly innovative, but who would say that Paul is not a Jew except few mythicists (convinced by the priority of Marcion) who want to diminish the Jewishness of Paul and Mark as much as possible to make their theory stand up ?

I give up on expecting from you to read what I write

So far you have made one single point, and that is that Paul states that the return of the Messiah would be glorious.
That's the very least he could do, I think - but how was any of it glorious? For Judaism, of course

The weak and feeble traces of Judaism in the NT are fake and false and diametrically opposed to the Tanakh.
Yes they line up with the LXX, but we all know that the LXX deviates from the Tanakh at crucial points, where the Greek is at odds with the Hebrew yet supports the NT - and I assert that the LXX got created post Mark and Matthew with exactly that goal in mind (which is an entirely different topic altogether)

The books you cite undoubtedly are Judaic and undoubtedly are "truly" Judaic in the sense that they faithfully reflect the Hebrew Tanakh (give or take a few discrepancies, perhaps?). But none of either is in the NT

We can only base our findings on the texts of the NT - and in those texts we find a religion that is Judaised; forcefully attached to the Tanakh in dubious and inaccurate ways

Sinouhe wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:13 am ... but who would say that Paul is not a Jew except few mythicists (convinced by the priority of Marcion) who want to diminish the Jewishness of Paul and Mark as much as possible to make their theory stand up ?

Marcion priority doesn't diminish the role of Judaism in or for the Pauline epistles. Nor for or in Mark.

Nor does it require diminishing of the role of Judaism in them.

Nor for the Marcionite gospel, for that matter.

And there's more Jewishness after them eg. Matthew. And for them with further editing.

MrMacSon wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:00 am

Sinouhe wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:13 am ... but who would say that Paul is not a Jew except few mythicists (convinced by the priority of Marcion) who want to diminish the Jewishness of Paul and Mark as much as possible to make their theory stand up ?

Marcion priority doesn't diminish the role of Judaism in or for the Pauline epistles. Nor for or in Mark.

Nor does it require diminishing of the role of Judaism in them.

Nor for the Marcionite gospel, for that matter.

And there's more Jewishness after them eg. Matthew. And for them with further editing.

It is embarrassing to explain Marcion's priority if Marcion's gospel makes pesharim using the prophets and if Paul is a Jewish author rooted in the Palestinian Judaism of his time. Hence the terms like: "parodic and non-Jewish texts" that one can read in this topic.

mlinssen wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:58 am I give up on expecting from you to read what I write

You did not respond to any of the points I made in my previous post.
Instead, you're rambling on about the LXX. So there is no need to continue.

Sinouhe wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:12 am

MrMacSon wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:00 am

Sinouhe wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:13 am ... but who would say that Paul is not a Jew except few mythicists (convinced by the priority of Marcion) who want to diminish the Jewishness of Paul and Mark as much as possible to make their theory stand up ?

Marcion priority doesn't diminish the role of Judaism in or for the Pauline epistles. Nor for or in Mark.

Nor does it require diminishing of the role of Judaism in them.

Nor for the Marcionite gospel, for that matter.

And there's more Jewishness after them eg. Matthew. And for them with further editing.

It is embarrassing to explain Marcion's priority if Marcion's gospel makes pesharim using the prophets and if Paul is a Jewish author rooted in the Palestinian Judaism of his time. Hence the terms like: "parodic and non-Jewish texts" that one can read in this topic.

Paul certainly is not Judaic, he's just a mediator between Chrestianity and Judaism - and a Roman rhetoric selling a gentile religion to a Judaic audience

Marcion is fiercely anti-Judaic, like Thomas. Both they and John are fiercely anti-Judean as well - likely because of their Samaritan background.
Christianity was brought about to counter all that, and it reverted the anti-Judaism into pro-Judaism - and we can see Paul trying to glue both pieces together

If Paul had been Judaic he would have trashed Christianity as it was at that point - but he couldn't, because he was part of the latter

In essence, the gospels thus share the same strategy as Paul ff:

1. Heal the wounds between Judaism and Chrestianity by ending the divide via bringing the opponents together;
2. Permanently align Chrestianity and Judaism by forging an unbreakable bond between the two via making one dependent on the other and vice versa

Sinouhe wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:22 am

mlinssen wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:58 am I give up on expecting from you to read what I write

You did not respond to any of the points I made in my previous post.
But I didn't expect you to do.

All of your points had nothing to do with my initial statement, namely that Christianity didn't deliver anything Judaic.
But the fact that you selectively quote only a single sentence from my post tells me enough

Judeo-Christianity is substantiated by nothing from the NT, and certainly not from anything in the Tanakh

Let me guess: you're not Judaic, are you?

mlinssen wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:26 am
But the fact that you selectively quote only a single sentence from my post tells me enough

Responding to arguments one by one is an honest and logical way to argue with someone who has an opposing view to your own. It is certainly more honest than rambling on about other subjects and going off topic like you did.

mlinssen wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:26 am Let me guess: you're not Judaic, are you?

You are becoming more and more irrelevant as the discussion goes on.

Sinouhe wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:34 am

mlinssen wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:26 am
But the fact that you selectively quote only a single sentence from my post tells me enough

Responding to arguments one by one is an honest and logical way to argue with someone who has an opposing view to your own. It is certainly more honest than rambling on about other subjects and going off topic like you did.

mlinssen wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:26 am Let me guess: you're not Judaic, are you?

You are becoming more and more irrelevant as the discussion goes on.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism ... w_of_Jesus

Get educated

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism ... w_of_Jesus

Get educated

It is really relevant to refer to modern orthodox and monolithic Judaism to talk about the plural Judaism of the first century before the assembly of yabneh. And it is not as if Josephus himself was talking about the different Jewish sects of the first century.

You are simply anachronic. I would ask you to study first century Judaism before engaging in a conversation on this subject.