Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

There is absolutely no connection between the gospel story and Josepghus except in necessarily late interpolations and glosses.

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:56 am

Leucius Charinus wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:52 am

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:48 amAh - but it's Josephus that holds the Jewish cards not mythicists or antisemitic readers.

But Josephus was never preserved in Jewish circles only in Christian circles. So to some extent Christians like Eusebius and Origen hold these cards.

Antiquities is dated 93/94 c.e. The trump card stays with Josephus.

But above you say: "the TF is a whole cloth interpolation by Eusebius". So in this case it would appear that Eusebius in 325 CE trumps Josephus from 93/94 CE. When someone is dealing cards from the bottom of the stack how do we know the whole game is not rigged?

schillingklaus wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:06 am There is absolutely no connection between the gospel story and Josepghus except in necessarily late interpolations and glosses.

Leucius Charinus wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:10 am

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:56 am

Leucius Charinus wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:52 am

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:48 amAh - but it's Josephus that holds the Jewish cards not mythicists or antisemitic readers.

But Josephus was never preserved in Jewish circles only in Christian circles. So to some extent Christians like Eusebius and Origen hold these cards.

Antiquities is dated 93/94 c.e. The trump card stays with Josephus.

But above you say: "the TF is a whole cloth interpolation by Eusebius". So in this case it would appear that Eusebius in 325 CE trumps Josephus from 93/94 CE.

A core TF is, to my thinking, Josephan. Josephus holds the trump card - All Eusebius did was add some additional - christian - colouring to a Jewish story i.e. influenced by gLuke and arguing against Acts of Pilate storyline.

When someone is dealing cards from the bottom of the stack how do we know the whole game is not rigged?

If suspicious - walk away and find another table worth your money and your time. The Eusebius table ? The many tables of the church fathers - the tables of the heretics. Luther, Calvin - maybe a Mormon table.....these tables are all at the end of the line. A line that goes back to Josephus and his narrative of Roman occupation of Judaea.

Yes, Josephus, or his writers, wrote many narratives than can be questioned. I would even go so far as to suggest that he cooked the books on Herodian history. He played many hands and wore many hats. Consequently, he is a full time job for any researcher. However, to discount narratives in Josephus because they have a 'christian' inference is to allow ones bias (mythicism or Roman conspiracies) to override an impartial scholarly investigation.

Ironic really - Josephus was preserved by Christians - understandably as he was, or his writings, deemed to be a traitor to the Jewish cause against Rome. Today - we have the mythicists and Roman conspiracy advocates turning their backs on Josephus by denying him any connection to the gospel Jesus story. (it's all interpolations..........) Strange old world....

The core TF only exists in the blooming hallucination of apologists.

A 93 FJ is the best proof for the absolute falsity of second temple Judaic origins of Christianity. FJ's treatement of Genesis knows of no original sin, which is paramoun t for Christianity and a Judaization of an originally gnostic concept of the cosmic fall.

schillingklaus wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:19 am The core TF only exists in the blooming hallucination of apologists.

A 93 FJ is the best proof for the absolute falsity of second temple Judaic origins of Christianity. FJ's treatement of Genesis knows of no original sin, which is paramoun t for Christianity and a Judaization of an originally gnostic concept of the cosmic fall.

The worlds most interesting man - Flavius Josephus ? Dr. Steve Mason

Leucius Charinus wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:52 am

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:48 amAh - but it's Josephus that holds the Jewish cards not mythicists or antisemitic readers.

But Josephus was never preserved in Jewish circles only in Christian circles. So to some extent Christians like Eusebius and Origen hold these cards.

Lucius,

Not sure if your "never" statement above is correct.

I recall, dimly at the moment, that there were 4th century or later Latin translations of Josephus' War that appear have been made by a Jewish, and non-Christian, translator.

This would suggest that there was some diaspora Jewish interest in Josephus in the era when the works were translated into Latin. Josephus was, after all, quite proud of his Jewish ethnicity and defended his people from criticisms leveled at them by non-Jews.

A search for "Josippon" in the forum search function should find some good discussions from better times here.

DCHindley wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:18 am

Leucius Charinus wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:52 am

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:48 amAh - but it's Josephus that holds the Jewish cards not mythicists or antisemitic readers.

But Josephus was never preserved in Jewish circles only in Christian circles. So to some extent Christians like Eusebius and Origen hold these cards.

Lucius,

Not sure if your "never" statement above is correct.

My source is Momigliano. He could be mistaken but so far I have found him to be quite reliable.

• "New discoveries are not likely to disprove the obvious conclusion that neither II Maccabees, nor Philo, nor Josephus were ever reabsorbed into the Jewish tradition. They remained operative only in Christian learning. II Maccabees, in spirit if not in form, is behind the Christian Acta Martyrum. Philo's conception of history is related to that of Lactantius' De Mortibus Persecutorum. More generally, Philo is the predecessor of the Christian Platonists. Finally, Josephus is one of the writers without whom Eusebius would not have been able to invent Ecclesiastical History."
  
  p.27, The Classical Foundations of Modern Historiography, Arnaldo Momigliano, Sather Classical Lectures (1961-62), Volume Fifty-Four, University of California Press, 1990
  http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/The%2 ... graphy.htm

I recall, dimly at the moment, that there were 4th century or later Latin translations of Josephus' War that appear have been made by a Jewish, and non-Christian, translator.

This would suggest that there was some diaspora Jewish interest in Josephus in the era when the works were translated into Latin. Josephus was, after all, quite proud of his Jewish ethnicity and defended his people from criticisms leveled at them by non-Jews.

A search for "Josippon" in the forum search function should find some good discussions from better times here.

Thanks DCH - I will have a look at these.

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:49 am

Leucius Charinus wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:10 amWhen someone is dealing cards from the bottom of the stack how do we know the whole game is not rigged?

If suspicious - walk away and find another table worth your money and your time.

But I'm not there to play the game. I am investigating the corruption associated with the publication of the theological-historical fiction of the Jesus Story Book.

Eusebius, the dude who deals the TF and the Jesus to Abgar letter from the bottom of the pack, is the same dude who is the Editor-in-Chief of the imperial 4th century NT Bible codices. Coincidentally he also just happens to be the same dude who is our one and only guide and "historian" in respect of the Universal Church industry and the "Nation of Christians" for the 300 years prior to the Nicene Council. Do you think Eusebius knew the Jesus story was an historical account? Do you think Eusebius knew the story was a theological-historical fiction but was passing it off as history?

The Eusebius table ? The many tables of the church fathers - the tables of the heretics.

You seem to be aware of the layout of the casino.

Strange old world....

You bet.