Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:14 am

mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:49 am

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:26 am The NT is primary a philosophical/spiritual story.

The NT, in the form that we have it in, as well as the form it was initiated by Mark, is purely political. That was the driver, even though the stories they took were spiritual - at least John was. Marcion? At least fairly political, if not entirely: aimed against Judeans and Judaism with vehement ferocity

A political allegory is how I've depicted the gospel story. But that's the root, the undercurrent which gives subtance or support to the top dressing. - - the philosophical/spiritual story.... The Resurrection.... of which Paul states without which your faith is in vain.

mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:54 am

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:14 am

mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:49 am

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:26 am The NT is primary a philosophical/spiritual story.

The NT, in the form that we have it in, as well as the form it was initiated by Mark, is purely political. That was the driver, even though the stories they took were spiritual - at least John was. Marcion? At least fairly political, if not entirely: aimed against Judeans and Judaism with vehement ferocity

A political allegory is how I've depicted the gospel story. But that's the root, the undercurrent which gives subtance or support to the top dressing. - - the philosophical/spiritual story.... The Resurrection.... of which Paul states without which your faith is in vain.

The resurrection certainly is an NT invention, that's for sure.
Philip even criticises it:

22 Those who say that the Lord first died and then arose are confused. For first he arose and (then) he died. If someone first acquires the resurrection, he will not die; (as) God lives, that one was [not] going to [die].

https://metalogos.org/files/ph_interlin/ph022.html

Naturally, in Chrestianity that was exactly what happened. So either Paul is pagan / Chrestian and the resurrection verse in Romans an interpolation, or he is part of the political conspiracy.
I know where to put my money, especially given the fact that he drops all the right words

Romans 6:5 Εἰ (If) γὰρ (for) σύμφυτοι (united) γεγόναμεν (we have become) τῷ (in the) ὁμοιώματι (likeness) τοῦ (of the) θανάτου (death) αὐτοῦ (of Him), ἀλλὰ (certainly) καὶ (also) τῆς (of the) ἀναστάσεως (resurrection) ἐσόμεθα (we will be); 6 τοῦτο (this) γινώσκοντες (knowing), ὅτι (that) ὁ (-) παλαιὸς (old) ἡμῶν (of us) ἄνθρωπος (self) συνεσταυρώθη (was crucified with Him), ἵνα (so that) καταργηθῇ (might be annulled) τὸ (the) σῶμα (body) τῆς (-) ἁμαρτίας (of sin), τοῦ (that) μηκέτι (no longer) δουλεύειν (are enslaved) ἡμᾶς (we) τῇ (-) ἁμαρτίᾳ (to sin). 7 ὁ (The one) γὰρ (for) ἀποθανὼν (having died) δεδικαίωται (has been freed) ἀπὸ (from) τῆς (-) ἁμαρτίας (sin).

Paul is the spin doctor of the NT

mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:54 am

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:14 am

mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:49 am

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:26 am The NT is primary a philosophical/spiritual story.

The NT, in the form that we have it in, as well as the form it was initiated by Mark, is purely political. That was the driver, even though the stories they took were spiritual - at least John was. Marcion? At least fairly political, if not entirely: aimed against Judeans and Judaism with vehement ferocity

A political allegory is how I've depicted the gospel story. But that's the root, the undercurrent which gives subtance or support to the top dressing. - - the philosophical/spiritual story.... The Resurrection.... of which Paul states without which your faith is in vain.

The resurrection certainly is an NT invention, that's for sure.
Philip even criticises it:

22 Those who say that the Lord first died and then arose are confused. For first he arose and (then) he died. If someone first acquires the resurrection, he will not die; (as) God lives, that one was [not] going to [die].

https://metalogos.org/files/ph_interlin/ph022.html

Naturally, in Chrestianity that was exactly what happened. So either Paul is pagan / Chrestian and the resurrection verse in Romans an interpolation, or he is part of the political conspiracy.
I know where to put my money, especially given the fact that he drops all the right words

Romans 6:5 Εἰ (If) γὰρ (for) σύμφυτοι (united) γεγόναμεν (we have become) τῷ (in the) ὁμοιώματι (likeness) τοῦ (of the) θανάτου (death) αὐτοῦ (of Him), ἀλλὰ (certainly) καὶ (also) τῆς (of the) ἀναστάσεως (resurrection) ἐσόμεθα (we will be); 6 τοῦτο (this) γινώσκοντες (knowing), ὅτι (that) ὁ (-) παλαιὸς (old) ἡμῶν (of us) ἄνθρωπος (self) συνεσταυρώθη (was crucified with Him), ἵνα (so that) καταργηθῇ (might be annulled) τὸ (the) σῶμα (body) τῆς (-) ἁμαρτίας (of sin), τοῦ (that) μηκέτι (no longer) δουλεύειν (are enslaved) ἡμᾶς (we) τῇ (-) ἁμαρτίᾳ (to sin). 7 ὁ (The one) γὰρ (for) ἀποθανὼν (having died) δεδικαίωται (has been freed) ἀπὸ (from) τῆς (-) ἁμαρτίας (sin).

Paul is the spin doctor of the NT

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:35 am

mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:54 am

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:14 am

mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:49 am

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:26 am The NT is primary a philosophical/spiritual story.

The NT, in the form that we have it in, as well as the form it was initiated by Mark, is purely political. That was the driver, even though the stories they took were spiritual - at least John was. Marcion? At least fairly political, if not entirely: aimed against Judeans and Judaism with vehement ferocity

A political allegory is how I've depicted the gospel story. But that's the root, the undercurrent which gives subtance or support to the top dressing. - - the philosophical/spiritual story.... The Resurrection.... of which Paul states without which your faith is in vain.

The resurrection certainly is an NT invention, that's for sure.
Philip even criticises it:

22 Those who say that the Lord first died and then arose are confused. For first he arose and (then) he died. If someone first acquires the resurrection, he will not die; (as) God lives, that one was [not] going to [die].

https://metalogos.org/files/ph_interlin/ph022.html

Naturally, in Chrestianity that was exactly what happened. So either Paul is pagan / Chrestian and the resurrection verse in Romans an interpolation, or he is part of the political conspiracy.
I know where to put my money, especially given the fact that he drops all the right words

Romans 6:5 Εἰ (If) γὰρ (for) σύμφυτοι (united) γεγόναμεν (we have become) τῷ (in the) ὁμοιώματι (likeness) τοῦ (of the) θανάτου (death) αὐτοῦ (of Him), ἀλλὰ (certainly) καὶ (also) τῆς (of the) ἀναστάσεως (resurrection) ἐσόμεθα (we will be); 6 τοῦτο (this) γινώσκοντες (knowing), ὅτι (that) ὁ (-) παλαιὸς (old) ἡμῶν (of us) ἄνθρωπος (self) συνεσταυρώθη (was crucified with Him), ἵνα (so that) καταργηθῇ (might be annulled) τὸ (the) σῶμα (body) τῆς (-) ἁμαρτίας (of sin), τοῦ (that) μηκέτι (no longer) δουλεύειν (are enslaved) ἡμᾶς (we) τῇ (-) ἁμαρτίᾳ (to sin). 7 ὁ (The one) γὰρ (for) ἀποθανὼν (having died) δεδικαίωται (has been freed) ἀπὸ (from) τῆς (-) ἁμαρτίας (sin).

Paul is the spin doctor of the NT

Are we being led by the nose by the above translation I wonder? I mean ἀναστάσεως could also be "stand upright" and what other translation can we give συνεσταυρώθη other than "crucified with"? There is no crucifying going on in that phrase as far as I can tell.

mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:54 am The resurrection certainly is an NT invention, that's for sure.
[...]

Romans 6:5 Εἰ (If) γὰρ (for) σύμφυτοι (united) γεγόναμεν (we have become) τῷ (in the) ὁμοιώματι (likeness) τοῦ (of the) θανάτου (death) αὐτοῦ (of Him), ἀλλὰ (certainly) καὶ (also) τῆς (of the) ἀναστάσεως (resurrection) ἐσόμεθα (we will be); 6 τοῦτο (this) γινώσκοντες (knowing), ὅτι (that) ὁ (-) παλαιὸς (old) ἡμῶν (of us) ἄνθρωπος (self) συνεσταυρώθη (was crucified with Him), ἵνα (so that) καταργηθῇ (might be annulled) τὸ (the) σῶμα (body) τῆς (-) ἁμαρτίας (of sin), τοῦ (that) μηκέτι (no longer) δουλεύειν (are enslaved) ἡμᾶς (we) τῇ (-) ἁμαρτίᾳ (to sin). 7 ὁ (The one) γὰρ (for) ἀποθανὼν (having died) δεδικαίωται (has been freed) ἀπὸ (from) τῆς (-) ἁμαρτίας (sin).

[11:12] ... Paul's big religious question is how is it that a human being flesh and blood born of a woman has been exalted into the highest heaven and become ruler of the cosmos and what is that all about and in other words he has a cosmic view of salvation.... [11:38]

[41:03] so what happened to jesus body he went back to the dust uh now if how would i know that because paul tells you in second corinthians 5 he says you know what it's like it's like you've got you we're at in 2nd corinthians 5 second corinthians 5. he gives two analogies he says i'm going to give you two analogies of the coming transformation one is it's kind of like old clothing like you are you you're naked and you put on clothes the body's your clothing it's a greek image plato uses it you're clothed with your body and it's kind of a nice analogy because i feel like i'm me but if i lose my arm or lose a appendage of my body i'm still me so i'm i'm clothed with the body body means your motive existence in communicating to the world so i'm able to talk to you with my voice with my gestures we can get on video we can talk like this with our bodies right right but me is my spirit or my soul or myself my inner self you know my self-conscious identity he says it's like old clothes and then he says and you take off the old clothes well now you're naked you don't have a body right but he said that's not what we want we want new clothes further clothes a whole new that would be the analogy of worrying about the corpse i got these old clothes they're kind of tattered and rotten and stinky because i'm getting old you know old body headed for the dust so i shed the body that's death now i'm naked i don't have a body i'm in the state of death or sleep it's the interim state as paul understands it and then i'm given this new glorious body new clothing it's glorious i don't go oh this is so great but i'm going to always carry these old clothes around with me man i love those old clothes i'm going to pick them up i'll put them in a little suitcase and walk around i know i'm being silly but the point is paul doesn't care about jesus's body... [43:19]

---

@time:00:41:03
"Did Paul Think Jesus Was a Pre-existent Being in Philippians 2 | James Tabor PhD". YouTube. MythVision Podcast. 4 May 2022.

mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:49 pm ...it seems that the better translation is

For if we have been united in the likeness of his death, certainly also [in the likeness] of resurrection we will be [united

It doesn't make much sense, like most of Paul. Just woolly words, we'd need to find what he means with likeness. It's all terribly vague

1. Paul only used ΧΣ as a name and not as a title, and ΧΣ likely stood for the name Chrestus i.e. "good god/slave".
2. 99+% of the Hellenistic world would of understood the term Chrestus as a name meaning "good god/slave".
3. 99+% of the Hellenistic world would of understood the term Christos as a word meaning perfumed hair oil or wet plaster or similar.

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 2:04 pm Philosophy would perhaps be a better approach to his mind, and that of the Pauline 'school' of writers, than dead human bodies...

This dissertation attempts to evaluate the ‘apocalyptic Paul’ movement through an examination of its major theological emphases in the light of the Jewish apocalypses
1 Enoch,
4 Ezra,
2 Baruch
and the Christian book of Revelation. Placing Paul in this literary and historical context confirms his place as an apocalyptic thinker...

---

Davies, James P. (2015). "Paul among the apocalypses? : an evaluation of the 'apocalyptic Paul' in the context of Jewish and Christian apocalyptic literature". University of St Andrews.

mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:49 pm

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:35 am

mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:54 am

maryhelena wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:14 am

mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:49 am

The NT, in the form that we have it in, as well as the form it was initiated by Mark, is purely political. That was the driver, even though the stories they took were spiritual - at least John was. Marcion? At least fairly political, if not entirely: aimed against Judeans and Judaism with vehement ferocity

A political allegory is how I've depicted the gospel story. But that's the root, the undercurrent which gives subtance or support to the top dressing. - - the philosophical/spiritual story.... The Resurrection.... of which Paul states without which your faith is in vain.

The resurrection certainly is an NT invention, that's for sure.
Philip even criticises it:

22 Those who say that the Lord first died and then arose are confused. For first he arose and (then) he died. If someone first acquires the resurrection, he will not die; (as) God lives, that one was [not] going to [die].

https://metalogos.org/files/ph_interlin/ph022.html

Naturally, in Chrestianity that was exactly what happened. So either Paul is pagan / Chrestian and the resurrection verse in Romans an interpolation, or he is part of the political conspiracy.
I know where to put my money, especially given the fact that he drops all the right words

Romans 6:5 Εἰ (If) γὰρ (for) σύμφυτοι (united) γεγόναμεν (we have become) τῷ (in the) ὁμοιώματι (likeness) τοῦ (of the) θανάτου (death) αὐτοῦ (of Him), ἀλλὰ (certainly) καὶ (also) τῆς (of the) ἀναστάσεως (resurrection) ἐσόμεθα (we will be); 6 τοῦτο (this) γινώσκοντες (knowing), ὅτι (that) ὁ (-) παλαιὸς (old) ἡμῶν (of us) ἄνθρωπος (self) συνεσταυρώθη (was crucified with Him), ἵνα (so that) καταργηθῇ (might be annulled) τὸ (the) σῶμα (body) τῆς (-) ἁμαρτίας (of sin), τοῦ (that) μηκέτι (no longer) δουλεύειν (are enslaved) ἡμᾶς (we) τῇ (-) ἁμαρτίᾳ (to sin). 7 ὁ (The one) γὰρ (for) ἀποθανὼν (having died) δεδικαίωται (has been freed) ἀπὸ (from) τῆς (-) ἁμαρτίας (sin).

Paul is the spin doctor of the NT

Are we being led by the nose by the above translation I wonder? I mean ἀναστάσεως could also be "stand upright" and what other translation can we give συνεσταυρώθη other than "crucified with"? There is no crucifying going on in that phrase as far as I can tell.

No, it's okay

https://www.stepbible.org/?q=version=BS ... NTERLEAVED

Click every word for yourself. Referring to the death of IS would be via the verb to impale, and naturally it says crucified all over the NT translation but we know that to be false.
The issue with the translation is in the dative and genitive that go with σύμφυτοι: united in the likeness and united of the resurrection - that's odd

Less odd is the past perfect in combination with the future: Paul is referring to two separate events here, one that has passed (the death of IS) and one that is yet to come (the resurrection in general of whatever and whoever).
But that still leaves the issue of the cases: it seems that the better translation is

For if we have been united in the likeness of his death, certainly also [in the likeness] of resurrection we will be [united

It doesn't make much sense, like most of Paul. Just woolly words, we'd need to find what he means with likeness. It's all terribly vague