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Re: Jesus, Paul and Josephus
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:02 am
by maryhelena
schillingklaus wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:16 pm
The Jewish apocalyptic Paul only exists in post-marcionite forgeries and interpolations.
By taking Paul’s Jewishness as a shared starting point, the conference explores the figure of Paul within Second Temple Judaism in a line of continuity with the Jewish apocalyptic tradition (and the Enochic tradition in particular), not as an apostate of Judaism but as part of the vibrant Jewish diversity of the time.
https://lsa.umich.edu/judaic/news-event ... 42274.html
Josephus’ prophetic role as historian merits special attention. He rewrites the history of the Jews in a fashion comparable to works such as the Genesis Apocryphon, the Book of Jubilees, and the Biblical Antiquities of Pseudo-Philo in the opinion of some scholars. His Deuteronomic view of history entails definite prophetic-theological agenda. In War 1.18-19 he declares that he will begin writing his history where the prophets ended theirs, so he is continuing this part of their prophetic function. According to Ap.1.29 the priests were custodians of the nation’s historical records, and in Ap.1.37 inspired prophets wrote that history. As a priest Josephus is a custodian of his people’s traditions, and by continuing that history in the Jewish War and subsequently by rewriting it in his Antiquities, he is a prophet. For Josephus prophets and historians preserve the past and predict the future, and he has picked up the mantle of creating prophetic writings. Perhaps, in his own mind he is the first since the canonical prophets to generate inspired historiography....
Of course his work was not truly revelation, as the canonical prophets had produced, but it was an inspired interpretative history, and this made his work superior to those historians who had written since the canonical period. The bold way in which Josephus handles the prophetic material in the biblical material may reflect his self-perception as an inspired historian. For he creatively reformulates prophetic texts and demonstrates a degree of authority over them......Hence, there are indications which point to a strong self-identify as a prophet.
Robert Karl Gnuse. Dreams and Dream Reports in the Writing of Josephus, A Traditio-Historical Analysis[/box]
Thus the ingredients were present for Josephus to write his histories as a prophetic historian. Josephus knew that the best histories were written by prophets.
Revealed Histories: Techniques for Ancient Jewish and Christian Historiography
By Robert Hall (1991)
There is no denying that the picture we now possess of Josephus as a prophet has been refined and developed in various ways. For example, the ideas that he claims first came to him in a moment of prophetic revelation at Jotapata – that God was punishing the Jews for their sins and that fortune had gone over to the Romans - have become major interpretive themes in the War as a whole. Josephus also sometimes reinforces the prophetic claims that he makes for himself by subtle changes in his presentation of the ancient prophets. And it is probable that, with the passage of time, Josephus’ image of himself as a prophet became clearer in his own mind.
Prophetic Figures in Late Second Temple Jewish Palestine: The Evidence from Josephus: Rebecca Gray
Re: Jesus, Paul and Josephus
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:21 am
by davidmartin
that's because Paul is getting the modern day re-interpretation treatment, to make him align with modern day sensibilities
hence endless 'conferences' where everyone 'agrees', and say infantile stuff like "Hey Yes Paul and Judaism actually agree completely"
They get to eat nice little pizza slices and quiche.
You want to see what 2nd temple Judaism thinks of Paul? OK, well teleport him in front of temple and have him expound his ideas - he will be dead in minutes. But the pizza is so tasty. Yum Yum. OK we will make Paul X, Y, Z and the temple da, da, dahhh. Problem solved. In your own mind, you jerk offs
Re: Jesus, Paul and Josephus
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:00 am
by dbz
maryhelena wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:40 pm
From an old FRDB thread of 2009.
Essenes never existed, were a Josephan invention, claims Rachel Elior. (post #123)
[...]
Basically indicating that
the NT figure of Paul is a reboot of the Jesus figure of the gospels - i.e. not a historical figure. Thomas Brodie came to this conclusion, that the NT figure of Paul is not a historical figure, in his book
Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus: Memoir of a Discovery.
Thus - the question present itself -
is the Josephan figure a reboot of the NT figure of Paul.
davidmartin wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:21 am
You want to see what 2nd temple Judaism thinks of Paul? OK, well teleport him in front of temple and have him expound his ideas - he will be dead in minutes.
I see Paul as anti-temple and Paul worshiped the logos/demiurge/redeemer second-god of Middle-Platonism synchronized with the dual powers of heaven in Judaism. And yes he would be dead dead upon setting foot on temple grounds.
Re: Jesus, Paul and Josephus
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:12 am
by lclapshaw
dbz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:00 am
maryhelena wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:40 pm
From an old FRDB thread of 2009.
Essenes never existed, were a Josephan invention, claims Rachel Elior. (post #123)
[...]
Basically indicating that
the NT figure of Paul is a reboot of the Jesus figure of the gospels - i.e. not a historical figure. Thomas Brodie came to this conclusion, that the NT figure of Paul is not a historical figure, in his book
Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus: Memoir of a Discovery.
Thus - the question present itself -
is the Josephan figure a reboot of the NT figure of Paul.
davidmartin wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:21 am
You want to see what 2nd temple Judaism thinks of Paul? OK, well teleport him in front of temple and have him expound his ideas - he will be dead in minutes.
I see Paul as anti-temple and Paul worshiped the logos/demiurge/redeemer second-god of Middle-Platonism synchronized with the dual powers of heaven in Judaism. And yes he would be dead dead upon setting foot on temple grounds.
So much for Acts then.
Re: Jesus, Paul and Josephus
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:09 pm
by mlinssen
dbz wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:53 pm
mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:49 pm
...it seems that the better translation is
For if we have been united in the likeness of his death, certainly also [in the likeness] of resurrection we will be [united
It doesn't make much sense, like most of Paul. Just woolly words, we'd need to find what he means with likeness. It's all terribly vague
Given:
- Paul only used ΧΣ as a name and not as a title, and ΧΣ likely stood for the name Chrestus i.e. "good god/slave".
- 99+% of the Hellenistic world would of understood the term Chrestus as a name meaning "good god/slave".
- 99+% of the Hellenistic world would of understood the term Christos as a word meaning perfumed hair oil or wet plaster or similar.[/list]
That's a dumb fable, as widespread as it is unsubstantiated
Paul says that Jesus, in obedience (FAITH) to first-god, relinquished the perfection of the heavenly realm and humbled himself.
Therefore, for those with FAITH, the dead do not die per se.
Rather First-god is rewarding the faithful with Earth-2.0, if they follow Second-god's example of not trying to grasp equality with First-god, but humble themself. If the devotee of IS—like the LORD—is willing to become like a slave—humiliated; killed; displayed naked on the stauros instrument of shame. Then they will be first on Earth-2.0, with perfected bodies to wear and angels to serve.
Re: Jesus, Paul and Josephus
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 12:16 am
by maryhelena
A new book on Paul:
An old book on Jesus:
An interesting article by Steve Mason:
Josephus, Daniel, and the Flavian House
As soon as it was written, the book of Daniel became the definitive
expression of Jewish apocalyptic hope. lt was read by groups of widely
different social status and education, including the Hasmonean court,
the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the rural and urban followers of
Jesus, visionaries, high priests, and rabbis. In his Jewish Antiquities, the
Jerusalem aristocrat Josephus also confesses an absorbing interest in
Daniel. This paper seeks to answer the question: to what degree was
Josephus' outlook, especially his view of the Flavian regime, influenced
by his interpretations of Daniel? I contend that a particular reading of
Daniel was an essential ingredient of his world view by the time that
he wrote the Jewish War.
https://www.academia.edu/11105056/Josep ... vian_House
Re: Jesus, Paul and Josephus
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:47 am
by dbz
mlinssen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:09 pm
dbz wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:53 pm
Given:
- Paul only used ΧΣ as a name and not as a title, and ΧΣ likely stood for the name Chrestus i.e. "good god/slave".
- 99+% of the Hellenistic world would of understood the term Chrestus as a name meaning "good god/slave".
- 99+% of the Hellenistic world would of understood the term Christos as a word meaning perfumed hair oil or wet plaster or similar.[/list]
That's a dumb fable, as widespread as it is unsubstantiated
- In Cyclops by Euripides (circa 450 BCE) per myró-christos/christon (μυρόχριστος)
"[line 495 Chorus] Happy the man who shouts the Bacchic cry, off to the revel, the well-beloved juice of the vine putting the wind in his sails. His arm is around his trusty friend, and he has waiting for him [500] the fresh, young body of his voluptuous mistress upon her bed, and with his
locks all gleaming with myrrh…"
Musgrave gives the variant spelling μυρόχριστος (myróchristos) in the sense of "anointed". Cf. Musgrave, Samuel, ed (1778). "Cyclops" (in Greek). ΕΥΡΙΠΙΔΟΥ ΤΑ ΣΩΖΟΜΕΝΑ (Euripidou ta sozomena - Euripides the saved) | Euripides, Quae extant omnia (All things extant). England: OUP|Clarendon Press. p.
3:80.
Re: Jesus, Paul and Josephus
Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:42 am
by maryhelena
A blast from the past on Josephus and the gospel figure of Joseph of Arimathea.
viewtopic.php?t=2951
Did GMark Intend Joseph of Arimathea to be Josephus?
A post of mine from that thread:
The relationship of the Josephan writings to the NT writings is a field of research that could well gain more insight into early christian origins.
Thomas Brodie: Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus.
Furthermore, Josephus and the evangelists were both engaged not only in writings and publishing, but essentially in the same field of writing-in diverse modifications and updatings of the Jewish scriptures. Thus while Antiquities uses many sources, it particularly builds on the traditional Jewish scriptures. And Luke-Acts is written as a continuation of the ancient Jewish scriptures (Sterling I 992: 363). And like Josephus, Luke too was a form of wide-ranging historian who went back to the beginning of things. Curiously, the Testimonium has affinities to some of the speeches concerning Jesus in the first half of Acts. In fact, the overall affinities between Josephus and Luke-Acts are so strong that researchers claim that one depends on the other, and, while the direction of dependence is debated, the two literary works do seem somehow intertwined. Luke in turn had access to Mark, and Mark also was in continuity with the ancient scriptures (see esp. Winn 2010). In others words, given the link of older scriptures with New Testament narrative, it makes sense that the Antiquities that built so carefully on the older scriptures should also acknowledge New Testament narrative.
What is important in the present context is the availability of a relatively simple working hypothesis: Josephus the writer, in accord with his general practice of adapting sources, especially scripture and scripture-related sources, knew enough about the writings of at least two specific New Testament authors, authors to whom in various ways he seems to have been close, that he could adapt and summarize what they had said, and so could make reference to Jesus.
What is certain is that it is extremely risky to conclude that Josephus did not have access, direct or indirect, either to serious discussion with some Christians or to some of the work of the evangelists, so it is not possible, in any reliable way, to invoke Josephus as an independent witness to Jesus. Unreliable witness cannot be used to condemn someone to death. And neither can it be used to assert that someone lived.
Re: Jesus, Paul and Josephus
Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 1:01 am
by maryhelena
Another fine quote on Josephus - perhaps a great way to start the new year....
The first century CE is like an ancient monument. It is a place of interest with riches that the visitor wants to stand among, their ambience to imbibe. Unfortunately, access to the site is limited to one point of entry. Most of the sources only provide a mere glimpse of the site. The only point of entry which allows you to view the site from within is the narrative of Josephus. The problem is that, once inside, we are offered an ‘official’ guided tour of the site. Josephus takes us to the various locations that he deems are the highlights. Our excitement at entering the site, therefore, is balanced by the requirements of Josephus that he shows us the official tour. It is time we left the official tour party. We have been given access to the site by Josephus but to ensure we are able to explore its contents in detail we must stand apart from him. As such, our visit to the site may take more time than the official tour program allows. But who wants to stay on a tour that does not let you stop and take your own pictures? James S. McLaren: Turbulent Times? Josephus and Scholarship on Judaea in the First Century CE.
Bottom line in all research into the NT - is Josephus. While theological or philosophical debates are necessary and interesting - if it's early christian history/beginnings we seek to understand - then the elephant in the room has to be faced - Josephus.
The focus of this thread is to seek an understanding of how, in what way, the writing of Josephus and the NT writings are connected, how they are related to each other. Without Josephus the gospel Jesus story has no historical leg to stand upon. However, a TF whole-cloth interpolation leaves the Jesus mythicists flying free to the celestial Christ in outer-space. The Jesus historicists, stuck with a TF they assume supports their Jesus historicism, not only give Josephus a free historical pass but also close the door to further investigation into Josephus. These two options on the Josephan TF - mythicists flying free via a whole-cloth interpolation - historicists stuck behind a closed door - allow Josephus to play his pass card - thus keeping research, and hence understanding, of early christian origins safe from prying eyes.
Re: Jesus, Paul and Josephus
Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 2:51 am
by mlinssen
Hear hear!
An interesting thread and proposition, Mary Helena
But should we really go over the TF again? Or even let our research be distorted by Josephus?
We shouldn't compare apples to oranges: if we go by a text in its original form, from the original MS, in the original language, then that has a very high value of objectivity, factuality.
If we then compare that to Josephus, the very least we should do is to take the original MS in question, in the original language, and cite its date and provenance - so that we can compare like for like
Roger Pearse has interesting data on the frequency in which Josephus is mentioned by the Patristics and related
https://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/jose ... sephus.htm
But most interestingly, here are the manuscripts available for us:
https://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/manu ... us_all.htm