Jesus, Paul and Josephus

[lclapshaw]

BTW, I agree that Antigonus probably really was the model for the IC "Passion" story.

But, imo, this just means that "Mark" used Josephus, or knew him personally.

Probably both.

[maryhelena]

BTW, I agree that Antigonus probably really was the model for the IC "Passion" story.

But, imo, this just means that "Mark" used Josephus, or knew him personally.

Probably both.

And that is what I hope to focus on in this thread..... What was the connection, and how relevant was that connection, between the gospel writers and Josephus..... Or the Josephan writers.

[MrMacSon]

What does IC stand for?

I See, as in “I See it ALL”
(what do You want to See, Grasshopper )

[lclapshaw]

What does IC stand for?

I See, as in “I See it ALL”
(what do You want to See, Grasshopper )

https://youtu.be/F32ZprK-N6I

[lclapshaw]

BTW, I agree that Antigonus probably really was the model for the IC "Passion" story.

But, imo, this just means that "Mark" used Josephus, or knew him personally.

Probably both.

And that is what I hope to focus on in this thread..... What was the connection, and how relevant was that connection, between the gospel writers and Josephus..... Or the Josephan writers.

Sure, but how? I personally don't see any way of determining anything like that beyond the possibility that "Mark" used parts of Josephus in his story.

[lclapshaw]

What does IC stand for?

I See, as in “I See it ALL”
(what do You want to See, Grasshopper )

https://youtu.be/F32ZprK-N6I

Enjoy the show while sipping on a nice Icee Chicee. Yummy

Lane

[MrMacSon]

Enjoy the show while sipping on a nice Icee Chicee. Yummy
Lane

The resurrection was too quick, so a bit of a spoiler

[MrMacSon]

BTW, I agree that Antigonus probably really was the model for the IC "Passion" story.

• Interesting

---

But, imo, this just means that "Mark" used Josephus, or knew him personally. Probably both.

... What was the connection, and how relevant was that connection, between the gospel writers and Josephus ... Or the Josephan writers.

I doubt the author of Mark knew Josephus personally (though it's not impossible)

The notion of Josephean writers raises an interesting prospects about (a) why Josephus' works were so well preserved (it's said they were preserved b/c Christians valued them) and (b) if they were edit-redacted and to what extent (beyond the TF (and possibly beyond Antiquities 20.200 and the John-the-Baptist passages)).

I doubt Flavians or their contemporaries wrote the gospels as others such as Joe Atwill and James Valiant propose (I think we'd have seen more of a flurry of reference-activity to them in and shortly after their time ie. during Trajan's time; and less of a need for later heresiologists to have to [re]assert orthodoxy)

I do wonder if Josephus himself - through the accounts about him - his accounts - was a model or template for some of the accounts of Jesus or other characters in the NT, including Paul. The change from being a Jewish military figure to being a chronicler of the period and a Roman patsy is interesting (including his intervening imprisonment and his interesting escape from that) ...

• it is possible Josephus is a fictitious character [too]

[maryhelena]

BTW, I agree that Antigonus probably really was the model for the IC "Passion" story.

But, imo, this just means that "Mark" used Josephus, or knew him personally.

Probably both.

And that is what I hope to focus on in this thread..... What was the connection, and how relevant was that connection, between the gospel writers and Josephus..... Or the Josephan writers.

Sure, but how? I personally don't see any way of determining anything like that beyond the possibility that "Mark" used parts of Josephus in his story.

How ? Well.... as you wrote earlier....."..the TF is way too good to be true". So...it's too good to be historical evidence for a historical gospel related Jesus.....so an alternative would be that the TF is supporting a literary gospel Jesus. A Josephus TF supporting a literary Jesus whose crucifixion is modelled upon, reflecting, Hasmonean history.

Josephus places his Jesus crucifixion story prior to 19 c.e. That is 49 years after Herod killed a previous Hasmonean King in 30 b.c. Hyrancus II. An event Josephus places 7 years after the Roman execution of Antigonus. Both Josephus and Luke are utilizing Hasmonean history in their Jesus stories ... both turning to Daniel and playing with variations on Daniel's 70 weeks of years i.e using Daniel's numbers as a template into which to place their Jesus stories.

Coincidence?....perhaps too good to be true...

Work in progress.....

[maryhelena]

BTW, I agree that Antigonus probably really was the model for the IC "Passion" story.

• Interesting

---

But, imo, this just means that "Mark" used Josephus, or knew him personally. Probably both.

... What was the connection, and how relevant was that connection, between the gospel writers and Josephus ... Or the Josephan writers.

I doubt the author of Mark knew Josephus personally (though it's not impossible)

The notion of Josephean writers raises an interesting prospects about (a) why Josephus' works were so well preserved (it's said they preserved b/c Christians valued them) and (b) if they were edit-redacted and to what extent (beyond the TF (and possibly beyond Antiquities 20.200 and the John-the-Baptist passages)).

I doubt Flavians or their contemporaries wrote the gospels as others such as Joe Atwill and James Valiant propose (I think we'd have seen more of a flurry of reference-activity to them in and shortly after their time ie. during Trajan's time; and less of a need for later heresiologists to have to [re]assert orthodoxy)

I do wonder if Josephus himself - through the accounts about him - his accounts - was a model or template for some of the accounts of Jesus or other characters in the NT, including Paul. The change from being a Jewish military figure to being a chronicler of the period and a Roman patsy is interesting (including his intervening imprisonment and his interesting escape from that) ...

• it is possible Josephus is a fictitious character [too]