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Re: Was the Gospel according to the Hebrews (GHeb) composed during a famine?

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:09 pm
by Secret Alias
Also consider the fact that there was an acknowledged "Antonine plague" which might have helped Christianity spread https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... istianity/

Re: Was the Gospel according to the Hebrews (GHeb) composed during a famine?

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:04 pm
by Secret Alias
I wonder if we can pull some more out of Origen's repurposing of Celsus's citation of a Jewish treatise. Here is how Origen introduces the Jewish work as a whole in Book One:
Any one who examines the subject will see that Jesus attempted and successfully accomplished works beyond the reach of human power. For although, from the very beginning, all things opposed the spread of His doctrine in the world — both the princes of the times, and their chief captains and generals, and all, to speak generally, who were possessed of the smallest influence, and in addition to these, the rulers of the different cities, and the soldiers, and the people (Πάντων γὰρ ἀρχῆθεν ἀντιπραττόντων τῷ σπαρῆναι τὸν λόγον αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὴν ὅλην οἰκουμένην, τῶν τε κατὰ καιροὺς βασιλέων καὶ τῶν ὑπ' αὐτοῖς ἀρχιστρατήγων καὶ ἡγεμόνων πάντων τε ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν τῶν ἡντινοῦν ἐξουσίαν ἐγκεχειρισμένων ἔτι δὲ καὶ τῶν κατὰ πόλεις ἀρχόντων καὶ στρατιωτικῶν καὶ δήμων) — yet it proved victorious, as being the Word of God, the nature of which is such that it cannot be hindered; and becoming more powerful than all such adversaries, it made itself master of the whole of Greece, and a considerable portion of Barbarian lands, and convened countless numbers of souls to His religion. And although, among the multitude of converts to Christianity, the simple and ignorant necessarily outnumbered the more intelligent, as the former class always does the latter, yet Celsus, unwilling to take note of this, thinks that this philanthropic doctrine, which reaches to every soul under the sun, is vulgar, and on account of its vulgarity and its want of reasoning power, obtained a hold only over the ignorant. And yet he himself admits that it was not the simple alone who were led by the doctrine of Jesus to adopt His religion; for he acknowledges that there were among them some persons of moderate intelligence, and gentle disposition, and possessed of understanding, and capable of comprehending allegories (Καίτοι οὐδ' αὐτὸς ἰδιώτας μόνους φησὶν ὑπὸ τοῦ λόγου προσῆχθαι τῇ κατὰ Ἰησοῦν θεοσεβείᾳ· ὁμολογεῖ γὰρ καὶ μετρίους καὶ ἐπιεικεῖς καὶ συνετούς τινας καὶ ἐπ' ἀλληγορίαν ἑτοίμους εἶναι ἐν αὐτοῖς).

And since, in imitation of a rhetorician training a pupil, he introduces a Jew, who enters into a personal discussion with Jesus, and speaks in a very childish manner, altogether unworthy of the grey hairs of a philosopher (Ἐπεὶ δὲ καὶ προσωποποιεῖ, τρόπον τινὰ μιμησάμενος ἓν ῥήτορος
εἰσαγόμενον παιδίον, καὶ εἰσάγει Ἰουδαῖον πρὸς τὸν Ἰησοῦν λέγοντά τινα μειρακιωδῶς καὶ οὐδὲν φιλοσόφου πολιᾶς ἄξιον), let me endeavour, to the best of my ability, to examine his statements, and show that he does not maintain, throughout the discussion, the consistency due to the character of a Jew. For he represents him disputing with Jesus, and confuting Him, as he thinks, on many points; and in the first place, he accuses Him of having invented his birth from a virgin (Μετὰ ταῦτα προσω ποποιεῖ Ἰουδαῖον αὐτῷ διαλεγόμενον τῷ Ἰησοῦ καὶ ἐλέγχοντα αὐτὸν περὶ πολλῶν μέν, ὡς οἴεται, πρῶτον δὲ ὡς πλασαμένου αὐτοῦ τὴν ἐκ παρθένου γένεσιν), and upbraids Him with being born in a certain Jewish village, of a poor woman of the country, who gained her subsistence by spinning, and who was turned out of doors by her husband, a carpenter by trade, because she was convicted of adultery; that after being driven away by her husband, and wandering about for a time, she disgracefully gave birth to Jesus, an illegitimate child, who having hired himself out as a servant in Egypt on account of his poverty, and having there acquired some miraculous powers, on which the Egyptians greatly pride themselves, returned to his own country, highly elated on account of them, and by means of these proclaimed himself a God. Now, as I cannot allow anything said by unbelievers to remain unexamined, but must investigate everything from the beginning, I give it as my opinion that all these things worthily harmonize with the predictions that Jesus is the Son of God.

For birth is an aid towards an individual's becoming famous, and distinguished, and talked about; viz., when a man's parents happen to be in a position of rank and influence, and are possessed of wealth, and are able to spend it upon the education of their son, and when the country of one's birth is great and illustrious; but when a man having all these things against him is able, notwithstanding these hindrances, to make himself known, and to produce an impression on those who hear of him, and to become distinguished and visible to the whole world, which speaks of him as it did not do before, how can we help admiring such a nature as being both noble in itself, and devoting itself to great deeds, and possessing a courage which is not by any means to be despised? And if one were to examine more fully the history of such an individual, why should he not seek to know in what manner, after being reared up in frugality and poverty, and without receiving any complete education, and without having studied systems and opinions by means of which he might have acquired confidence to associate with multitudes, and play the demagogue, and attract to himself many hearers, he nevertheless devoted himself to the teaching of new opinions, introducing among men a doctrine which not only subverted the customs of the Jews, while preserving due respect for their prophets, but which especially overturned the established observances of the Greeks regarding the Divinity? And how could such a person — one who had been so brought up, and who, as his calumniators admit, had learned nothing great from men — have been able to teach, in a manner not at all to be despised, such doctrines as he did regarding the divine judgment, and the punishments that are to overtake wickedness, and the rewards that are to be conferred upon virtue; so that not only rustic and ignorant individuals were won by his words, but also not a few of those who were distinguished by their wisdom, and who were able to discern the hidden meaning in those more common doctrines, as they were considered, which were in circulation, and which secret meaning enwrapped, so to speak, some more recondite signification still? The Seriphian, in Plato, who reproaches Themistocles after he had become celebrated for his military skill, saying that his reputation was due not to his own merits, but to his good fortune in having been born in the most illustrious country in Greece, received from the good-natured Athenian, who saw that his native country did contribute to his renown, the following reply: Neither would I, had I been a Seriphian, have been so distinguished as I am, nor would you have been a Themistocles, even if you had had the good fortune to be an Athenian! And now, our Jesus, who is reproached with being born in a village, and that not a Greek one, nor belonging to any nation widely esteemed, and being despised as the son of a poor labouring woman, and as having on account of his poverty left his native country and hired himself out in Egypt, and being, to use the instance already quoted, not only a Seriphian, as it were, a native of a very small and undistinguished island, but even, so to speak, the meanest of the Seriphians, has yet been able to shake the whole inhabited world not only to a degree far above what Themistocles the Athenian ever did, but beyond what even Pythagoras, or Plato, or any other wise man in any part of the world whatever, or any prince or general, ever succeeded in doing.

Now, would not any one who investigated with ordinary care the nature of these facts, be struck with amazement at this man's victory?— with his complete success in surmounting by his reputation all causes that tended to bring him into disrepute, and with his superiority over all other illustrious individuals in the world? And yet it is a rare thing for distinguished men to succeed in acquiring a reputation for several things at once. For one man is admired on account of his wisdom, another for his military skill, and some of the Barbarians for their marvellous powers of incantation, and some for one quality, and others for another; but not many have been admired and acquired a reputation for many things at the same time; whereas this man, in addition to his other merits, is an object of admiration both for his wisdom, and for his miracles, and for his powers of government. For he persuaded some to withdraw themselves from their laws, and to secede to him, not as a tyrant would do, nor as a robber, who arms his followers against men; nor as a rich man, who bestows help upon those who come to him; nor as one of those who confessedly are deserving of censure; but as a teacher of the doctrine regarding the God of all things, and of the worship which belongs to Him, and of all moral precepts which are able to secure the favour of the Supreme God to him who orders his life in conformity therewith. Now, to Themistocles, or to any other man of distinction, nothing happened to prove a hindrance to their reputation; whereas to this man, besides what we have already enumerated, and which are enough to cover with dishonour the soul of a man even of the most noble nature, there was that apparently infamous death of crucifixion, which was enough to efface his previously acquired glory, and to lead those who, as they who disavow his doctrine assert, were formerly deluded by him to abandon their delusion, and to pass condemnation upon their deceiver.

And besides this, one may well wonder how it happened that the disciples— if, as the calumniators of Jesus say, they did not see Him after His resurrection from the dead, and were not persuaded of His divinitywere not afraid to endure the same sufferings with their Master, and to expose themselves to danger, and to leave their native country to teach, according to the desire of Jesus (1 Πρὸς τούτοις δὲ θαυμάσαι ἄν τις, πόθεν ἐπῆλθε τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ, ὡς λέγουσιν οἱ κακολογοῦντες τὸν Ἰησοῦν, μὴ ἑωρακόσιν αὐτὸν ἀναστάντα ἀπὸ τῶν νεκρῶν μηδὲ πεισθεῖσιν ὅτι θειότερόν τι ἦν ἐκεῖνος, πρὸς τῷ μὴ φοβηθῆναι τὰ αὐτὰ τῷ διδασκάλῳ παθεῖν καὶ ὁμόσε χωρῆσαι τῷ
κινδύνῳ καὶ καταλιπεῖν τὰς πατρίδας ὑπὲρ τοῦ διδάξαι κατὰ τὸ Ἰησοῦ βούλημα
, the doctrine delivered to them by Him. For I think that no one who candidly examines the facts would say that these men devoted themselves to a life of danger for the sake of the doctrine of Jesus, without profound belief which He had wrought in their minds of its truth, not only teaching them to conform to His precepts, but others also, and to conform, moreover, when manifest destruction to life impended over him who ventured to introduce these new opinions into all places and before all audiences (καὶ διατιθέναι προὔπτου ὄντος ὡς πρὸς τὸν ἀνθρώπων βίον ὀλέθρου τῷ τολμῶντι πανταχοῦ καὶ πρὸς πάντας καινο τομεῖν καὶ μηδένα ἀνθρώπων), and who could retain as his friend no human being who adhered to the former opinions and usages. For did not the disciples of Jesus see, when they ventured to prove not only to the Jews from their prophetic Scriptures that this is He who was spoken of by the prophets, but also to the other heathen nations, that He who was crucified yesterday or the day before underwent this death voluntarily on behalf of the human race — that this was analogous to the case of those who have died for their country in order to remove pestilence, or barrenness, or tempests. For it is probable that there is in the nature of things, for certain mysterious reasons which are difficult to be understood by the multitude, such a virtue that one just man, dying a voluntary death for the common good, might be the means of removing wicked spirits, which are the cause of plagues, or barrenness, or tempests, or similar calamities (Ἆρα γὰρ οὐχ ἑώρων οἱ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ μαθηταί, τολμῶντες οὐ μόνον Ἰουδαίοις ἐκ τῶν προφητικῶν λόγων παριστάνειν ὅτι οὗτος εἴη ὁ προφητευθείς, ἀλλὰ καὶ τοῖς λοιποῖς ἔθνεσιν ὅτι ὁ χθὲς καὶ πρώην σταυρωθεὶς ἑκὼν τοῦτον τὸν θάνατον ὑπὲρ τοῦ γένους τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀνεδέξατο, ἀνάλογον τοῖς ἀποθανοῦσιν ὑπὲρ τῶν πατρίδων ἐπὶ τῷ σβέσαι λοιμικὰ κρατήσαντα καταστήματα ἢ ἀφορίας ἢ δυσπλοΐας ; Εἰκὸς γὰρ εἶναι ἐν τῇ φύσει τῶν πραγμάτων κατά τινας ἀπορρήτους καὶ δυσλήπτους τοῖς πολλοῖς λόγους φύσιν τοιαύτην, ὡς ἕνα δίκαιον ὑπὲρ τοῦ κοινοῦ ἀποθανόντα ἑκουσίως ἀποτρο πιασμοὺς ἐμποιεῖν φαύλων δαιμονίων, ἐνεργούντων λοιμοὺς ἢ ἀφορίας ἢ δυσπλοΐας ἤ τι τῶν παραπλησίων). Let those, therefore, who would disbelieve the statement that Jesus died on the cross on behalf of men, say whether they also refuse to accept the many accounts current both among Greeks and Barbarians, of persons who have laid down their lives for the public advantage, in order to remove those evils which had fallen upon cities and countries? (Λεγέτωσαν οὖν οἱ βουλόμενοι ἀπιστεῖν τῷ Ἰησοῦν ὑπὲρ ἀνθρώπων ἀποτεθνηκέναι τρόπῳ σταυροῦ, πότερον οὐδὲ τὰς ἑλληνικὰς παραδέξονται καὶ βαρβαρικὰς πολλὰς ἱστορίας περὶ τοῦ τινας ὑπὲρ τοῦ κοινοῦ τεθνηκέναι καθαιρετικῶς τῶν προκαταλαβόντων τὰς πόλεις καὶ τὰ ἔθνη κακῶν) Or will they say that such events actually happened, but that no credit is to be attached to that account which makes this so-called man to have died to ensure the destruction of a mighty evil spirit, the ruler of evil spirits, who had held in subjection the souls of all men upon earth? (ἢ ἐκεῖνα μὲν γεγένηται οὐδὲν δὲ πιθανὸν ἔχει ὁ νομιζόμενος ἄνθρωπος πρὸς τὸ ἀποθανεῖν ἐπὶ καθαιρέσει μεγάλου δαίμονος καὶ δαιμόνων ἄρχοντος, ὑποτάξαντος ὅλας τὰς ἐπὶ γῆν ἐληλυθυίας ἀνθρώπων ψυχάς)And the disciples of Jesus, seeing this and much more (which, it is probable, they learned from Jesus in private), and being filled, moreover, with a divine power (since it was no mere poetical virgin that endowed them with strength and courage, but the true wisdom and understanding of God), exerted all their efforts to become distinguished among all men, not only among the Argives, but among all the Greeks and Barbarians alike, and so bear away for themselves a glorious renown.

But let us now return to where the Jew is introduced, speaking of the mother of Jesus, and saying that when she was pregnant she was turned out of doors by the carpenter to whom she had been betrothed, as having been guilty of adultery, and that she bore a child to a certain soldier named Panthera ...
The order of the treatise seems to be that:

(1) the Jew begins with an account of the Virgin Birth
(2) the low birth of Jesus
(3) Jesus's death was somehow connected with ending a pestilence from the Devil

It is worth noting the structure of what follows in Against Celsus:

(a) discussion of Virgin Birth lasts from 1.37 - 40 and then "After these assertions, he takes from the Gospel of Matthew, and perhaps also from the other Gospels, the account of the dove alighting upon our Saviour at His baptism by John, and desires to throw discredit upon the statement, alleging that the narrative is a fiction. Having completely disposed, as he imagined, of the story of our Lord's birth from a virgin, he does not proceed to deal in an orderly manner with the accounts that follow it; since passion and hatred observe no order, but angry and vindictive men slander those whom they hate, as the feeling comes upon them, being prevented by their passion from arranging their accusations on a careful and orderly plan. For if he had observed a proper arrangement, he would have taken up the Gospel, and, with the view of assailing it, would. have objected to the first narrative, then passed on to the second, and so on to the others. But now, after the birth from a virgin, this Celsus, who professes to be acquainted with all our history, attacks the account of the appearance of the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove at the baptism."
(b) at about 1.49 he deals with Jesus being the subject of prophesy and seems to identify John as the one prophet who foretold of his coming.
(c) by about 1.65 he seems to pick up on the theme that the disciples weren't willing to die like Jesus
(d) ends book 1 with a confirmation that Jesus wasn't supernatural but an ordinary man
(e) and then:
Our present object, however, is to expose the ignorance of Celsus, who makes this Jew of his address his fellow-citizen and the Israelitish converts in the following manner: What induced you to abandon the law of your fathers? ... Now, how confused is the reasoning of the Jew in regard to these matters (although he had it in his power to speak with greater effect) when he says: Certain among you have abandoned the usages of our fathers under a pretence of explanations and allegories; and some of you, although, as you pretend, interpreting them in a spiritual manner, nevertheless do observe the customs of our fathers; and some of you, without any such interpretation, are willing to accept Jesus as the subject of prophecy, and to keep the law of Moses according to the customs of the fathers, as having in the words the whole mind of the Spirit. Now how was Celsus able to see these things so clearly in this place, when in the subsequent parts of his work he makes mention of certain godless heresies altogether alien from the doctrine of Jesus, and even of others which leave the Creator out of account altogether, and does not appear to know that there are Israelites who are converts to Christianity, and who have not abandoned the law of their fathers? It was not his object to investigate everything here in the spirit of truth, and to accept whatever he might find to be useful; but he composed these statements in the spirit of an enemy, and with a desire to overthrow everything as soon as he heard it.

The Jew, then, continues his address to converts from his own nation thus: Yesterday and the day before, when we visited with punishment the man who deluded you, you became apostates from the law of your fathers; showing by such statements (as we have just demonstrated) anything but an exact knowledge of the truth. But what he advances afterwards seems to have some force, when he says: How is it that you take the beginning of your system from our worship, and when you have made some progress you treat it with disrespect, although you have no other foundation to show for your doctrines than our law? ... What force, then, is there in the objection of the Jew of Celsus, that if any one predicted to us that the Son of God was to visit mankind, he was one of our prophets, and the prophet of our God? Or how is it a charge against Christianity, that John, who baptized Jesus, was a Jew? For although He was a Jew, it does not follow that every believer, whether a convert from heathenism or from Judaism, must yield a literal obedience to the law of Moses.

After these matters, although Celsus becomes tautological in his statements about Jesus, repeating for the second time that he was punished by the Jews for his crimes, we shall not again take up the defense, being satisfied with what we have already said. But, in the next place, as this Jew of his disparages the doctrine regarding the resurrection of the dead, and the divine judgment, and of the rewards to be bestowed upon the just, and of the fire which is to devour the wicked, as being stale opinions, and thinks that he will overthrow Christianity by asserting that there is nothing new in its teaching upon these points, we have to say to him, that our Lord, seeing the conduct of the Jews not to be at all in keeping with the teaching of the prophets, inculcated by a parable that the kingdom of God would be taken from them, and given to the converts from heathenism. For which reason, now, we may also see of a truth that all the doctrines of the Jews of the present day are mere trifles and fables, since they have not the light that proceeds from the knowledge of the Scriptures; whereas those of the Christians are the truth, having power to raise and elevate the soul and understanding of man, and to persuade him to seek a citizenship, not like the earthly Jews here below, but in heaven. And this result shows itself among those who are able to see the grandeur of the ideas contained in the law and the prophets, and who are able to commend them to others.

But let it be granted that Jesus observed all the Jewish usages, including even their sacrificial observances, what does that avail to prevent our recognising Him as the Son of God? Jesus, then, is the Son of God, who gave the law and the prophets; and we, who belong to the Church, do not transgress the law, but have escaped the mythologizings of the Jews, and have our minds chastened and educated by the mystical contemplation of the law and the prophets. For the prophets themselves, as not resting the sense of these words in the plain history which they relate, nor in the legal enactments taken according to the word and letter, express themselves somewhere, when about to relate histories, in words like this, I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter hard sayings of old; and in another place, when offering up a prayer regarding the law as being obscure, and needing divine help for its comprehension, they offer up this prayer, Open my eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of Your law.
It stands to reason then that Origen's statement at the beginning of Book 2 likening Jesus's crucifixion to those who died to end plagues and famines as being an echo of something that buried inside of Celsus's original work because the two statements appear in roughly the same place in the two overviews of Celsus's work.

Re: Was the Gospel according to the Hebrews (GHeb) composed during a famine?

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:26 am
by Lev
This is fascinating and I think there is considerable mileage in the theory you propose. How would you determine whether Celsus was interacting with a Jew who had read GHeb (and thus influenced by it), or whether the Jew was an invention, as Orgien seems to suggest?
And since, in imitation of a rhetorician training a pupil, he introduces a Jew, who enters into a personal discussion with Jesus, and speaks in a very childish manner, altogether unworthy of the grey hairs of a philosopher

Re: Was the Gospel according to the Hebrews (GHeb) composed during a famine?

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:24 pm
by Secret Alias
Well, the first thing is to decide Origen's relationship with the original text. What I mean is (a) when was the True Account written and (b) why did it take so long for Origen to respond to it. I know this sounds like a stupid question - and I admit I tend to get thrown off course by marginalia - but there are suggestive reasons for scrutinizing the text as 'twice rewritten.' What I mean is that this text begins with "Origen" confessing that he had to rewrite the original draft. I think the same situation is preserved in the Commentary on Matthew. In this case Against Celsus is one of Origen's last works (because of the rewrite). However this doesn't tell us when the original text (the first draft) was written.

The next question is deciding when the True Word was written. I have pointed to a discovery that the text was written as a reaction to events in Alexandria c. 175 CE. I don't think it makes sense that Origen would have written a response to something written 60 years earlier being prompted by his patron Ambrose. I won't get into why. But let's just say that the first draft was written closer to 175 CE. I think Origen was defending Alexandrian Christianity. But that's another issue.

If the True Word was written between 175 - 180 CE (when there were two Emperors, Marcus Aurelius and Commodus) and Celsus seems to know and cite Justin, Hegesippus and the Jason and Papiscus text among others https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogue_ ... d_Papiscus it is entirely possible that he managed to get his hands on a Jewish response to some of these "Christian/Jewish debate texts." As such I don't doubt that Celsus is citing from a Jewish anti-Christian treatise especially since we know Jews were attracted to the ben Pandera/Panthera story. I note that it is possible that Origen deliberately withheld the name of the author. Could the text have been a pseudepigraphon written under the name of Philo of Alexandria?

In any event, the gospel cited in Books 1 and 2 (the parts with the Jew) seems to resemble a variant Matthew (Gospel of the Hebrews)? From my many encounters trying to piece together the True Word I have noted that the gospel seems to resemble or reflect the theology of Justin Martyr. Jesus is born of a virgin but entirely divine. If Justin used the Gospel of the Hebrews or something like it (Epiphanius says the Diatessaron = the Gospel of the Hebrews) it is possible that Celsus's Jew is reflecting knowledge of the Gospel of the Hebrews. Also, perhaps more important for your purposes, Justin's theology seems to reflect Origen's statement about the death of Jesus as effecting Satan and his hordes and their plagues.

Re: Was the Gospel according to the Hebrews (GHeb) composed during a famine?

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 4:17 pm
by Secret Alias
As I said I tend to go off topic but whenever using a controversial work by Origen (i.e. one that was rewritten) I assume that Jerome's comment/hint about Eusebius rewriting Origen applies. So in this case, Celsus's argument (developed as it was after the 'Cow-pasture revolt of 175 CE) is that the Jews rebelled from the Egyptians and the Christians under Jesus rebelled from the Jews (because neither group has the "True Word" which was from the beginning i.e. they are 'illogical' and this play on words is repurposed by the author of the section of the Panarion's entry on those who don't accept the Gospel and Revelation of John. In this case, I assume that Origen's original Against Celsus actually confronted this argument head-on. In Eusebius's re-write (assuming it was Eusebius who rewrote it) the first major difference from the original is that Against Celsus no longer follows Celsus line by line and this is part of a broader pattern of avoiding the pagan's argument that Christians rebel against the state.

Re: Was the Gospel according to the Hebrews (GHeb) composed during a famine?

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 4:28 pm
by Lev
I think you may be right that Celsus has a written source he's using, rather than a person he's interacting with or has invented. On further reflection, the critique from Origen doesn't make sense:
And since, in imitation of a rhetorician training a pupil, he introduces a Jew, who enters into a personal discussion with Jesus, and speaks in a very childish manner, altogether unworthy of the grey hairs of a philosopher
Why would Celsus invent a witness whose argumentation is that of a dullard to support his claims? If he has invented a combatant against Christianity, surely he would afford him some intelligence. Moreover, would not the invented character speak in the same voice as the creator, much in the same way we have JBap speaking in the same voice as the 4th Evangelist in John3:22-36?

This probably means that 'the Jew' cited was probably from a written text, and Celsus has preserved the intellectually inferior pattern of thought and argumentation that Origen objects to. I have many more questions which will probably wait until tomorrow (especially concerning your reconstruction of the True Word and citations from Justin, Heggisipus, etc.), but for now, I wish to register my appreciation for your insights and for sharing your theory as the more I reflect on it, the more I think you might be onto something here.

Re: Was the Gospel according to the Hebrews (GHeb) composed during a famine?

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:27 pm
by Secret Alias
I think that most scholars accept that "the Jew of Celsus" is a real text. It used to be difficult, I think, to claim that a Church Father like Origen was less than truthful.

Re: Was the Gospel according to the Hebrews (GHeb) composed during a famine?

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:44 am
by Lev
In any event, the gospel cited in Books 1 and 2 (the parts with the Jew) seems to resemble a variant Matthew (Gospel of the Hebrews)? From my many encounters trying to piece together the True Word I have noted that the gospel seems to resemble or reflect the theology of Justin Martyr...
...Also, perhaps more important for your purposes, Justin's theology seems to reflect Origen's statement about the death of Jesus as effecting Satan and his hordes and their plagues.
I'll be looking into this theory over the next few days. If you have time, would you be able to link to any research for:

1) Your reconstruction of the True Word (I note there is a partial reconstruction on Early Christian Writings here - does it differ?)
2) Where you see Justin's theology affecting Satan, his hordes, and their plagues (I'm assuming the plagues in this instance are accompanied by famines?)

Please don't interrupt any festive celebrations or rest on my account - I appreciate your assistance thus far and don't want to burden you further if it interrupts your plans this time of year.

Re: Was the Gospel according to the Hebrews (GHeb) composed during a famine?

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:34 am
by gryan
Hi Lev,

Thanks for this interesting thread.

I read Luke's version of the Rich Young Ruler in a line leading up to the post-Pentecost community in Jerusalem that included poor people and some rich people who sold all and gave to the community.

I wonder if the author of G Hebrews had read Luke Acts, or at least had known the history presented in it. Although the story is placed during the lifetime of Jesus, the application of it is in the life of the gathering of believers after the death of Jesus. There might have been some people in the post-Pentecost community who would have died of hunger without help from others who had wealth.

The story might have been composed more for the application of it after Jesus' death. In the frame of application in the life of the early church, the story of Ananias and Sapphira is a parallel composition.

Re: Was the Gospel according to the Hebrews (GHeb) composed during a famine?

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:38 am
by schillingklaus
The gospel is late piecemeal, as are the canonical gospels. Trying to date them to one particular point in history from internal markers is hilarious and in vain.

The post-pentecostal community in Jerusalem exists only in the abstruse fantasy of patrists and apologists, unworthy of being considered by critical thinkers.