Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 4:07 pm

ABuddhist wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:42 pm

Ulan wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:47 pmNo, it's unrelated. It's a name from a story collection from 1950.

A, I assume that I have stumbled upon a fellow lover of Jack Vance!

Me too! I read The Dying Earth as a teenager and I guess I fell in love with myths and myth-making from then.

Yes, it was like opening a door to a whole new world. All these societies and cultures Vance invented were so interesting. It made me appreciate the human tendency to spin new myths. I'm not sure it was ever about "truth". The excitement of new thoughts is the driver in and itself.

Ulan wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:48 pm

MrMacSon wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:36 pm There’s a view that ‘Roman Mithracism’ was a modification of and thus a variation on [an original] Persian Mithracism

Yeah, but that's exactly the view that got discredited in recent decades. Some distant relation? Maybe. The problem lies in the iconography we basically know from every mithraeum. It doesnt' match anything we know about the Persian Mithra.

This is why I am interested in what modern archeology tells us about the dating of these mithraeum.

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:16 am This is why I am interested in what modern archeology tells us about the dating of these mithraeum.

There have been more than 1000 mithraeums found and archeologically investigated so far, and most date between 100BC and 300AD. The cult reached its height in the 3rd century AD. Geographically, the center is on Italy and the Western part of the Empire (Germany, France, etc.) and very rare in the East. I've taken the commuter train out of town to Carnuntum a few weeks ago, and they had three mithraeums in that town, with a nicely preserved tauroctonomy scene and lots of other related art in the museum.

Generally, the cult seems to be related to the Roman legions, mostly in the Western part of the Empire.

Ulan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:30 am

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:16 am This is why I am interested in what modern archeology tells us about the dating of these mithraeum.

There have been more than 1000 mithraeums found and archeologically investigated so far, and most date between 100BC and 300AD. The cult reached its height in the 3rd century AD. Geographically, the center is on Italy and the Western part of the Empire (Germany, France, etc.) and very rare in the East. I've taken the commuter train out of town to Carnuntum a few weeks ago, and they had three mithraeums in that town, with a nicely preserved tauroctonomy scene and lots of other related art in the museum.

Generally, the cult seems to be related to the Roman legions, mostly in the Western part of the Empire.

Right on Ulan, that was very helpful. Thank you very much.

Lane

Ulan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:30 am

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:16 am This is why I am interested in what modern archeology tells us about the dating of these mithraeum.

There have been more than 1000 mithraeums found and archeologically investigated so far, and most date between 100BC and 300AD. The cult reached its height in the 3rd century AD. Geographically, the center is on Italy and the Western part of the Empire (Germany, France, etc.) and very rare in the East. I've taken the commuter train out of town to Carnuntum a few weeks ago, and they had three mithraeums in that town, with a nicely preserved tauroctonomy scene and lots of other related art in the museum.

Generally, the cult seems to be related to the Roman legions, mostly in the Western part of the Empire.

Maybe it was Westerners (if I may use the term for convenience) using orientalizing trappings for their religion, as with Theosophy.

ABuddhist wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:41 am

Ulan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:30 am

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:16 am This is why I am interested in what modern archeology tells us about the dating of these mithraeum.

There have been more than 1000 mithraeums found and archeologically investigated so far, and most date between 100BC and 300AD. The cult reached its height in the 3rd century AD. Geographically, the center is on Italy and the Western part of the Empire (Germany, France, etc.) and very rare in the East. I've taken the commuter train out of town to Carnuntum a few weeks ago, and they had three mithraeums in that town, with a nicely preserved tauroctonomy scene and lots of other related art in the museum.

Generally, the cult seems to be related to the Roman legions, mostly in the Western part of the Empire.

Maybe it was Westerners (if I may use the term for convenience) using orientalizing trappings for their religion, as with Theosophy.

The origin of the cult seems to coincide with the opening of sea trade by the Romans via the Red Sea. I wonder if this is how it seems to skip the Eastern half of the Roman republic/empire to only show up in it's form in the Western half.

Are there any examples of this cult in Egypt I wonder, and if so how early?

Just to clarify: It's not that there aren't any mithraeums found in the East, there just aren't as many as in Italy, along the Rhine or in Pannonia. A famous example of a mithraeum is the one from Dura-Europos, the town on the Euphrates where one of the earliest churches and one of the earliest synagogues were found. You generally find them everywhere where Roman troops were stationed.

A mithraeum from Memphis in Egypt is known, but hasn't been described, so no details.

Re: Mithraeum

Interesting! There is a Wikipedia page about them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraeum

Ulan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:30 am
There have been more than 1000 mithraeums found and archeologically investigated so far, and most date between 100BC and 300AD. The cult reached its height in the 3rd century AD. Geographically, the center is on Italy and the Western part of the Empire (Germany, France, etc.) and very rare in the East. I've taken the commuter train out of town to Carnuntum a few weeks ago, and they had three mithraeums in that town, with a nicely preserved tauroctonomy scene and lots of other related art in the museum.

Generally, the cult seems to be related to the Roman legions, mostly in the Western part of the Empire.

Cool!

Thanks to your reference, I was able to "visit" mithraeums in the town to Carnuntum online:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/holyrover ... carnuntum/

Re: Franz Cumont, his thesis regarding Mithraism, and a link to David Ulansey's critique of his thesis, there is a wikipedia page.

"Franz-Valéry-Marie Cumont (3 January 1868 in Aalst, Belgium – 20 August 1947 in Woluwe-Saint-Pierre near Brussels) was a Belgian archaeologist and historian, a philologist and student of epigraphy, who brought these often isolated specialties to bear on the syncretic mystery religions of Late Antiquity, notably Mithraism.

...He contributed to many standard encyclopedias, published voluminously
and in 1922, under stressful political conditions, conducted digs on the shore of the Euphrates
at the previously unknown site of Dura-Europos;
he published his research there in 1926"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Cumont