Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Ulan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:36 pm Just to clarify: It's not that there aren't any mithraeums found in the East, there just aren't as many as in Italy, along the Rhine or in Pannonia. A famous example of a mithraeum is the one from Dura-Europos, the town on the Euphrates where one of the earliest churches and one of the earliest synagogues were found. You generally find them everywhere where Roman troops were stationed.

A mithraeum from Memphis in Egypt is known, but hasn't been described, so no details.

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:45 pm Also, to clarify, when you refer to the East, does that include Greece and Turkiye?

Ulan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:30 am

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:16 am This is why I am interested in what modern archeology tells us about the dating of these mithraeum.

There have been more than 1000 mithraeums found and archeologically investigated so far, and most date between 100BC and 300AD. The cult reached its height in the 3rd century AD. Geographically, the center is on Italy and the Western part of the Empire (Germany, France, etc.) and very rare in the East. I've taken the commuter train out of town to Carnuntum a few weeks ago, and they had three mithraeums in that town, with a nicely preserved tauroctonomy scene and lots of other related art in the museum.

Generally, the cult seems to be related to the Roman legions, mostly in the Western part of the Empire.

Ulan wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:23 am

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:45 pm Also, to clarify, when you refer to the East, does that include Greece and Turkiye?

Yes, it does. This doesn't mean we don't have any mithraeums there, it just means they are rarer. The city of Rome alone is supposed to have had about 800 mithraeums, and the rest is generally found in the border regions of the Empire, where the legions were stationed and veterans settled. You can find them at Hadrian's Wall, along the Rhine and the Limes, all the way down the Danube (Pannonia, Dacia, etc.). Dura-Europos was also a border town.

This brings us to the question how important the cult was. While the number of mithraeums was high, most were small and only fit a very limited number of people, and many were only in use for a very short time. You can say that the appeal was limited to (i) males and (ii) soldiers. I don't think that's a good start for a religion to develop mass appeal. You could assume that, as the military was obviously important in the making of emperors, there was a slight chance of an emperor pushing the cult into a more public role, but Mithraism never grew above its status as a mystery religion nobody was allowed to talk about. Maybe it would have worked if combining Mithraism with the Sol Invictus cult (both, Marc Aurel and Constantine tried to push Sol Invictus) had been more successful. Mithraism delivered the hierarchy necessary to utilize religion for power projection, which made Christianity so interesting for Roman emperors, while Sol Invictus had a broader appeal. However, both religions were never transformed into playing an important role for society as a whole.

In summary, the chance of this becoming a serious competitor to Christianity wasn't zero, but I wouldn't put it very high. Christianity had women and poor people pushing it, two groups that deliver the numbers necessary for it to become a large scale movement, and a hierarchy that enabled it as a tool for power projection. This combination is what made it successful.

andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:23 am 100 BC seems wrong. see for example Mithras I'm not aware of a standard Mithraeum that can be solidly dated BC at all.

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:00 am Thank you for this. I would like to discuss this with you as you appear well informed on this subject but don't want to waste your time with a lot of basic stuff. Are there any books and other material that you would like to recommend to help bring me up to speed on this subject?

Ulan wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:55 am

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:00 am Thank you for this. I would like to discuss this with you as you appear well informed on this subject but don't want to waste your time with a lot of basic stuff. Are there any books and other material that you would like to recommend to help bring me up to speed on this subject?

Sorry, no, I'm not specifically involved in this topic. I read about it over the years, given there are quite a few archeological remnants of that cult in the German-speaking area, but as I said, it's a rather controversial topic. I haven't read any newer English language book about Mithraism and, therefore, cannot recommend anything with good consciousness. I know the book of Manfred Clauss, and I think that has been translated into English as "The Roman Cult of Mithras: The God and His Mysteries".

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:49 am In the interim, does the link that Andrew posted seem worthwhile to you?

Ulan wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:55 pm

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:49 am In the interim, does the link that Andrew posted seem worthwhile to you?

Roger Pearse's site? It's the same site gryan linked on the first page, and it's a good summary of what's out there.