a balance sheet of my so-called research

[Giuseppe]

Richard Carrier's 10 indisputable facts	Where I stand (at the moment)
FACT 0. Many counter-cultural Jewish sects were seeking hidden messages in scripture.	Obvious.
FACT 1. Cephas (Peter), a member or leader of one of those sects, had “visions” telling him one of those messages was now fulfilled.	I don't know when this happened (since Paul, even if authentic, is not dated at all, I don't believe that the Aretas passage is genuine).
FACT 2. That fellow influenced or inspired others to have or claim supporting visions.	obvious.
FACT 3. They all died.	obvious.
FACT 4. Then some later folks did what was done for all savior gods: they made up stories about their savior god to promote what was by then a lifetime of the accumulated teachings, dogmas, and beliefs of various movement leaders.	I think that this has been made before Marcion, by at least a monastic school, where both authors and readers were true experts of Midrash, Hebrew and gematria. The 99% of the fabricated midrashim had undated contexts. All apart two: one where "Pilate" was mentioned to make this midrashical point, and another where a "Herod" was mentioned to make the midrashical point that also Herod is "embarrassed" by the innocence of Jesus (the meaning of HRD in Hebrew; cfr Acts 25:20.).
FACT 5. They all died.	obvious.
FACT 6. Then some later folks started promoting those myths as historically true.	I think that Marcion was the first who selected from those myths the only episodes useful for his Evangelion, in addition to other episodes fabricated by himself (for example: the do-gooder Jesus who forgives the demons in Gerasa without punishing them shortly after, or the parable of new wine in new wineskins). So Marcion marks the passage from Gospel episodes considered only as midrash, and Gospel episodes read as 'historically true'. Obviously, the Pontic Marcion was too much ignorant in Hebrew to realize the irony behind the mention of 'Pilate' and 'Herod' (see fact 4 above).
FACT 7. Those who protested that, were denounced as heretics and agents of Satan.	Obvious. I would add that even Marcion ostracized them, probably.
FACT 8. They all died.	Obvious.
FACT 9. Those who liked the new invented version of history won total political power and used it to destroy all the literature of those who had ever protested it.	Surely "Mark", "Matthew" and "John" and "Luke" liked the Marcion's promotion of those midrashical myths as 'history'. It can be proved that "Mark", "Matthew" and "John" and "Luke" were more experts of midrash than Marcion himself, even if chronologically they follow Marcion: the midrash is recognizable even in the birth stories of Luke. It is possible that "Mark", "Matthew" and "John" and "Luke" descended from the experts of midrash of the fact 4.
All ten points are indisputable facts. Not theory. Facts. Documented. Undeniable. Facts.	Well.

[MrMacSon]

FACT 1. Cephas (Peter), a member or leader of one of those sects, had “visions” telling him one of those messages (hidden in scripture) was now fulfilled.

There's no evidence for that (unless Carrier is taking, say, an epistle of, say, Peter as genuinely written by a Peter).

[Leucius Charinus]

All ten points are indisputable facts. Not theory. Facts. Documented. Undeniable. Facts.

(IMO) They are not facts.
(IMO) They are propositions.

The three propositions 3, 5 and 8 that "they all died" assumes they once (historically) lived.

[billd89]

The three propositions 3, 5 and 8 that "they all died" assumes they once (historically) lived.

Good catch.

I tried to lasso this beast here.

[schillingklaus]

Paul and the pillars only exist in the blooming fantasy of right-wing apologists (historians) like Carrier. Critical scholars, such as van den Bergh van Eysinga, refrainn from making those abstruse assumptions.

[Giuseppe]

The point of the thread is not claiming that the Pillars or Paul existed (even if assuming a nebulous historicity for them has a such explanatory power....). My point was more banally that Marcion was only the first promoter of a previous story as "Remembered History", and the canonical writers followed eagerly his example.

So what before Marcion? Only innocent exercises in midrash. The same exercises, with identical ability, continued after Marcion and by the enemies of Marcion, but with in addition the anomalous novelty introduced by Marcion: the arrogant claim that all that midrash was "Remembered History".