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Re: List of Gospel passages from unmistakably Marcionite origin

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:20 pm
by Secret Alias
Tertullian is clearly commenting on Luke rather than the Marcionite gospel throughout chapter 33 too
4.33 Quibus duobus dominis neget posse serviri quia alterum offendi sit necesse altemm defendi, ipse declarat deum proponens et mammonam

[Holmes: What the two masters are who, He says, cannot be served, on the ground that while one is pleased the other must needs be displeased, He Himself makes clear, when He mentions God and mammon. Then, if you have no interpreter by you, you may learn again from Himself what He would have understood by mammon.

Evans: Who those two masters are who he says cannot be served, because of necessity one of them will be spurned and the other protected, he himself makes clear when he sets them down as God and mammon And next, if you have no one to explain to you whom he intends you to understand by mammon, you can hear it from himself.
Do people really want us to believe that Tertullian is sitting there and commenting from the gospel of Marcion saying that Marcion has misunderstood or misinterpreted the gospel of Marcion? Of course not. He is talking about Luke and so all that follows here is what is said in the gospel of Luke and we should understand that Tertullian is citing from the gospel of Luke:
When advising us so to use worldly possessions as to provide for ourselves future friendships and support, he refers to the example of the servant who, when dismissed from office, relieves his lord's debtors by reducing their obligations, and so gains security for himself: and adds, And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness, meaning, with money, as that servant did. For all of us know that money is the author of unrighteousness, and the tyrant of all human society. So when he saw that the covetousness of the pharisees was subservient to it, he slung out this sentence, Ye cannot serve God and mammon. So the pharisees, who were covetous of money, derided him, because they understood that by mammon he meant money. So let no one suppose that by 'mammon' one must understand the Creator, or that Christ had called them away from the Creator's service. How so? Learn rather from this how Christ has shown that God is one. He has made mention of two masters, God and mammon, the Creator and money. So, ye cannot serve God, the God they were thought to be serving, and mammon, to which they preferred to commit themselves. But if he had been representing himself as that other, it would have been three masters, not two, that he indicated. For the Creator is master, being God, and in fact much more a master than mammon, and deserving much greater respect, being much more the master. For how can it be that when he had called mammon a master and had mentioned him in the same sentence with God, he should in truth have omitted to mention those people's own God, the Creator? Or was it that by not mentioning him he admitted it was permissible to serve him, since it was only himself and mammon he said could not be served? So when he speaks of God, in the singular—though he would have mentioned the Creator too, if he himself had been that other <god>—it was the Creator he did mention, by the fact that he did without further definition refer to him as master. And so light will be thrown on this, in what sense it was said, If ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will entrust to you that which is true? He means 'unrighteous money', not 'the Creator', for even Marcion says the Creator is 'righteous'. And if ye have not been found faithful in that which is not your own, who will give you that which is mine? For to servants of God that which is unrighteous must always be 'not their own'. But how can the Creator be an alien to the pharisees, when he is the particular God of the Jewish nation? If then these expressions do not apply to the Creator but to mammon, the questions Who will entrust to you that which is more true? and, Who will give you that which is mine? cannot be taken for questions by one god about another god's grace. He might indeed have been thought to mean this, if by censuring them for unfaithfulness towards the Creator, not towards mammon, he had by mentioning the Creator introduced distinctions between <him and> some second god who would refuse to entrust his own truth to those unfaithful to the Creator; as likewise he can indeed be taken for the Christ of that other god, except that he is set before us in terms by which he is kept at a distance from the subject under discussion

quomodo tunc alterius videri potest, si non ad hoc proponatur ut a re de qua agitur separetur.

Holmes: How then can he possibly seem to belong to another god, if He be not set forth, with the express intention of being separated from the very thing which is in question.
I think that unfortunately Marcionite scholarship wants to simplify an unfortunately very complex argument in Tertullian to the point that we can simply "know" what the Marcionite gospel looks like line by line. It's not that simple. The closest example I can give is when two people are in an argument and the one puts forward a hypothetical situation. Let's say it's a husband and wife (my most familiar type of argument). The two are trying to piece together "what's wrong with the other party" so the wife puts forward a caricature of the husband. "So you got into your car, drove to the store, forgot your wallet in the car, did all your shopping, went to the check out, realized you couldn't pay, left all the stuff in the store, came back home not realizing your wallet is in the car." The wife's reconstruction of what happened isn't the actual happening but a proposed reconstruction of the events based on a set of assumptions. The same thing is true with Tertullian here. He's assumed that the Marcionite gospel is a corrupt version of Luke and proceeded to go section by section to prove that Marcion's inferences from the gospel are false.

All interpretations of Against Marcion Book 4 have to acknowledge what I just said. Even if you assume that Tertullian literally had a copy of Marcion's gospel while he made his proposed reconstruction he's not simply citing Marcion's gospel. Even in this proposed reconstruction of what Tertullian is saying there is still the overarching argument of Marcion's gospel is a corruption of Luke and so even if you pretend that Tertullian had that copy of Marcion's gospel you still see the argument pop out time and time again "but Luke's gospel says X" "but Luke is orthodox so you wouldn't have inferred Y" etc. etc. The bottom line is that as difficult as it is for scholars to get around it, Tertullian is always writing a commentary on Luke rather than a commentary on Marcion's gospel. I just say throw out the supposition that Tertullian has a copy of Marcion's gospel. Against Marcion Book 4 will always be a Commentary on Luke. It's the one inescapable fact about Against Marcion Book 4.

Re: List of Gospel passages from unmistakably Marcionite origin

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:40 pm
by Secret Alias
Just look at the structure of the last section:
Holmes: Forasmuch then as the words, "Who will entrust to you the truer riches? "and, "Who will give you that which is mine? "are only suitable to the Creator and not to mammon, He could not have uttered them as alien to the Creator, and in the interest of the rival god. He could not have uttered them as alien to the Creator, and in the interest of the rival god. He could only seem to have spoken them in this sense, if, when remarking their unfaithfulness to the Creator and not to mammon, He had drawn some distinctions between the Creator (in his manner of mentioning Him) and the rival god----how that the latter would not commit his own truth to those who were unfaithful to the Creator. How then can he possibly seem to belong to another god, if He be not set forth, with the express intention of being separated from the very thing which is in question.

If then these expressions do not apply to the Creator but to mammon, the questions Who will entrust to you that which is more true? and, Who will give you that which is mine? cannot be taken for questions by one god about another god's grace. He might indeed have been thought to mean this, if by censuring them for unfaithfulness towards the Creator, not towards mammon, he had by mentioning the Creator introduced distinctions between <him and> some second god who would refuse to entrust his own truth to those unfaithful to the Creator; as likewise he can indeed be taken for the Christ of that other god, except that he is set before us interms by which he is kept at a distance from the subject under discussion.
How could Tertullian be understood to be strictly commenting on Marcion's gospel? If Marcion's gospel said X and Tertullian were only examining X the correct answer to the abovementioned question would be "Marcion's gospel says X because Marcion's gospel says X." In other words, if it is a stand alone text you can't argue against Marcion's interpretation of his gospel UNLESS you are also arguing that Marcion's gospel come from Luke and Luke was an orthodox disciple of the Christian Church. The commentary here in chapter 33 only works as a Commentary on Luke. Marcion's gospel can say what it wants. Marcion's interpretation is only disproved if Luke is doing the "putting forth." Tertullian is not arguing that Marcion's inferences from HIS OWN GOSPEL make no sense. He is arguing that his inferences from Luke are irrational.

Re: List of Gospel passages from unmistakably Marcionite origin

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:56 pm
by Secret Alias
Similarly in chapter 34
The remarks I have advanced on this case will be also of use to me in illustrating the subsequent parable of the rich man tormented in hell, and the poor man resting in Abraham's bosom. For this passage, so far as its letter goes, comes before us abruptly (subito propositum est) but if we regard its sense and purport, it naturally fits in with the mention of John wickedly slain, and of Herod, who had been condemned by him for his impious marriage. It sets forth in bold outline the end of both of them, the "torments" of Herod and the "comfort" of John, that even now Herod might hear that warning: "They have there Moses and the prophets, let them hear them."
Are people fucking stupid? I really ask this because I don't think they READ what is suggested here. When Tertullian repeatedly says in what precedes it that Marcion's gospel lacks 'order' (sounds like Papias's criticism of Mark) that everything is out of order and doesn't fit WHAT FUCKING GOSPEL IS HE COMMENTING ON WHEN HE SAYS that this is "sudden" but in a good way and argues on behalf of this "sudden" passage "naturally" fitting with what is around it in the gospel? Tertullian is defending the gospel of Marcion? Really? Fuck off. So who is he addressing here? He's commending the Marcionite gospel? No of course not. He's speaking here and throughout about Luke.

So again I ask, who is doing the "setting forth" throughout Book 4? Who "set forth" this passage? Marcion or Luke? What gospel does he have before him which is "sudden" and seemingly "out of order" (but in a good way here)? It's Luke not Marcion.