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Marcionites baptized in the name of Christ

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:49 am
by Irish1975
The letters of Cyprian indicate that Marcionite Christians of the 3rd century practiced “baptism in [or into] the name of Jesus Christ.” Cyprian decrees that such a baptism is invalid, since Marcionites believe in the wrong God.

Certainly, since I found in the letter the copy of which you transmitted to me, that it was
written, “That it should not be asked who baptized, since he who is baptized might receive remission
of sins according to what he believed,” I thought that this topic was not to be passed by, especially
since I observed in the same epistle that mention was also made of Marcion, saying that “even those
that came from him did not need to be baptized, because they seemed to have been already baptized
in the name of Jesus Christ.”
Therefore we ought to consider their faith who believe without, whether
in respect of the same faith they can obtain any grace. For if we and heretics have one faith, we
may also have one grace. If the Patripassians, Anthropians, Valentinians, Apelletians, Ophites,
Marcionites, and other pests, and swords, and poisons of heretics for subverting the truth,2853 confess
the same Father, the same Son, the same Holy Ghost, the same Church with us, they may also have
one baptism if they have also one faith.
And lest it should be wearisome to go through all the heresies, and to enumerate either the
follies or the madness of each of them, because it is no pleasure to speak of that which one either
dreads or is ashamed to know, let us examine in the meantime about Marcion alone, the mention
of whom has been made in the letter transmitted by you to us, whether the ground of his baptism
can be made good. For the Lord after His resurrection, sending His disciples, instructed and taught
them in what manner they ought to baptize, saying, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in
earth. Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the
Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”2854 He suggests the Trinity, in whose sacrament the nations were to
be baptized. Does Marcion then maintain the Trinity? Does he then assert the same Father, the
Creator, as we do? Does he know the same Son, Christ born of the Virgin Mary, who as the Word
was made flesh, who bare our sins, who conquered death by dying, who by Himself first of all
originated the resurrection of the flesh, and showed to His disciples that He had risen in the same
flesh? Widely different is the faith with Marcion
, and, moreover, with the other heretics; nay, with
them there is nothing but perfidy, and blasphemy, and contention, which is hostile to holiness and
truth. How then can one who is baptized among them seem to have obtained remission of sins, and
the grace of the divine mercy, by his faith, when he has not the truth of the faith itself? For if, as
some suppose, one could receive anything abroad out of the Church according to his faith, certainly
he has received what he believed; but if he believes what is false, he could not receive what is true;
but rather he has received things adulterous and profane, according to what he believed.

Letter 72: 4-5

This form of baptism, considered heretical and invalid by Cyprian, is of course the only form of baptism known in both the letters of Paul (Gal 3:27, 1 Cor 1:7, Rom 6:3) and Acts of the Apostles (2:38, 10:48, 19:5).

But today only certain “oneness Pentecostals” baptize in the name of Jesus alone. All other Christians conform to the Trinitarian formula commanded by the risen Christ in Matthew 28:19. Agreement on Trinitarian baptism is even considered a foundational principle of ecumenism.

Cyprian is aware of the awkwardness. He makes a miserable argument, repeated down the centuries, that the apostles in Acts were concerned primarily with bringing the Jews up to date, who already worshipped the true Father, and therefore only needed the name of the Messiah. (Both Luke and Paul were writing about the baptism of gentiles, mainly.)

For Cyprian, the words of the risen Lord trump the words of Peter and Paul:

Let nothing be innovated, says he, nothing maintained, except what has been
handed down. Whence is that tradition? Whether does it descend from the authority of the Lord
and of the Gospel, or does it come from the commands and the epistles of the apostles? For that
those things which are written must be done, God witnesses and admonishes, saying to Joshua the
son of Nun: “The book of this law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate in it
day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein.” Also the
Lord, sending His apostles, commands that the nations should be baptized, and taught to observe
all things which He commanded. If, therefore, it is either prescribed in the Gospel, or contained in
the epistles or Acts of the Apostles, that those who come from any heresy should not be baptized,
but only hands laid upon them to repentance, let this divine and holy tradition be observed. But if
everywhere heretics are called nothing else than adversaries and antichrists, if they are pronounced
to be people to be avoided, and to be perverted and condemned of their own selves, wherefore is
it that they should not be thought worthy of being condemned by us, since it is evident from the
apostolic testimony that they are of their own selves condemned? So that no one ought to defame
the apostles as if they had approved of the baptisms of heretics, or had communicated with them
without the Church’s baptism
, when they, the apostles, wrote such things of the heretics. And this,
too, while as yet the more terrible plagues of heresy had not broken forth; while Marcion of Pontus
had not yet emerged from Pontus, whose master Cerdon came to Rome,—while Hyginus was still
bishop, who was the ninth bishop in that city,—whom Marcion followed, and with greater impudence
adding other enhancements to his crime, and more daringly set himself to blaspheme against God
the Father, the Creator, and armed with sacrilegious arms the heretical madness that rebelled against
the Church with greater wickedness and determination.

Letter 73: 2

Matthew’s Trinitarian form agrees with Justin (1 Apology, 61) and Didache 7, and becomes the standard Catholic practice with Tertullian and Cyprian.

Re: Marcionites baptized in the name of Christ

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:18 am
by Irish1975
One question to ask:

Since with Justin and Tertullian we already see the rejection of Marcion root and branch, is it likely that Trinitarian baptism was innovated specifically for the purpose of opposing Marcionism? There is at least the Didache to consider. As with so many early Christian texts, there is almost as little evidence for dating it to the 1st century as there is an abundant consensus among Professional New Testament Scholars for dating it exactly that early.

It is hard to imagine the author of Acts, who is indistinguishable from the redactor of the first canonical edition (Trobisch: circa 160), would have gone out of his way to reject a trinitarian form of baptism, had he known about it. The Matthean Great Commission must, therefore, be later than the establishment of Acts! And how paradoxical that Acts would be more in line with the Marcionite churches than with the catholics.

It should be kept in mind that there is nothing more essential in the development of a religion than the form of its rite of initiation.

Re: Marcionites baptized in the name of Christ

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:32 am
by davidmartin
Unseemly jealousy from Cyprian - acting like a possessive control freak girlfriend discovering her guy is merely friends with someone else. He wants total control and won't be satisfied till it all falls into his lap. Chances the real, deal Christ would agree with his Stevie Nicks impersonation - zero

Re: Marcionites baptized in the name of Christ

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:42 am
by Irish1975
yeah, lol

Re: Marcionites baptized in the name of Christ

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:10 am
by Giuseppe
John 3:22-24
22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. 24 (This was before John was put in prison.)

The emphasis on the fact that Jesus baptized even before that John was imprisoned appears to be a polemical answer by Marcionites (=authors of proto-John, per Turmel) against Mark (where the baptism of Jesus by John is designed only to confirm the humanity of Jesus). If Jesus is active before of John then he is entirely a divine being and not a mere man: the introduction of John in the incipit of the gospel (an introduction apparently accepted by Marcionites, by the time they wrote proto-John) is accordingly neutralized.

The catholic corrector of proto-John introduced in verse 4:2 the specific that Jesus didn't baptize, only his disciples did.

Re: Marcionites baptized in the name of Christ

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:42 am
by Irish1975
I don’t think anything can be inferred about early Christian baptism from these crazy accounts in John 3 and 4, except that the writers of this Gospel couldn’t get their story straight. Anyhow, the form of baptism (that Jesus did and did not perform) is not addressed.

Re: Marcionites baptized in the name of Christ

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:02 am
by Giuseppe
Turnel is aware of how much the "water" is marcionite in proto-John (i.e. implying a baptism in the name only of Jesus):

It is the Marcionite writer who created the beloved disciple. This being so, is there not a right to conclude that it is he also who, in 21:24, presents us with this fictitious character as the author of the Gospel? This conclusion would be plausible, if there were not another text that I have passed over in silence, and which therefore deserves to draw our attention. It is 19:35. There the beloved disciple intervenes again, but, this time, he functions as a witness. He attests that he saw the spear blow struck by the Roman soldier. He certifies that this spear blow produced an outpouring of blood and water. He, the very close friend of the spiritual Christ, betrays his Master and puts himself at the service of the carnal Christ. He, who owes his existence to the Marcionite writer, here he is co-opted by the Catholic publisher whose thesis he defends.

(my bold)

Re: Marcionites baptized in the name of Christ

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 4:09 pm
by mlinssen
Irish1975 wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:49 am The letters of Cyprian indicate that Marcionite Christians of the 3rd century practiced “baptism in [or into] the name of Jesus Christ.” Cyprian decrees that such a baptism is invalid, since Marcionites believe in the wrong God.

Certainly, since I found in the letter the copy of which you transmitted to me, that it was
written, “That it should not be asked who baptized, since he who is baptized might receive remission
of sins according to what he believed,” I thought that this topic was not to be passed by, especially
since I observed in the same epistle that mention was also made of Marcion, saying that “even those
that came from him did not need to be baptized, because they seemed to have been already baptized
in the name of Jesus Christ.”
Therefore we ought to consider their faith who believe without, whether
in respect of the same faith they can obtain any grace. For if we and heretics have one faith, we
may also have one grace. If the Patripassians, Anthropians, Valentinians, Apelletians, Ophites,
Marcionites, and other pests, and swords, and poisons of heretics for subverting the truth,2853 confess
the same Father, the same Son, the same Holy Ghost, the same Church with us, they may also have
one baptism if they have also one faith.
And lest it should be wearisome to go through all the heresies, and to enumerate either the
follies or the madness of each of them, because it is no pleasure to speak of that which one either
dreads or is ashamed to know, let us examine in the meantime about Marcion alone, the mention
of whom has been made in the letter transmitted by you to us, whether the ground of his baptism
can be made good. For the Lord after His resurrection, sending His disciples, instructed and taught
them in what manner they ought to baptize, saying, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in
earth. Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the
Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”2854 He suggests the Trinity, in whose sacrament the nations were to
be baptized. Does Marcion then maintain the Trinity? Does he then assert the same Father, the
Creator, as we do? Does he know the same Son, Christ born of the Virgin Mary, who as the Word
was made flesh, who bare our sins, who conquered death by dying, who by Himself first of all
originated the resurrection of the flesh, and showed to His disciples that He had risen in the same
flesh? Widely different is the faith with Marcion
, and, moreover, with the other heretics; nay, with
them there is nothing but perfidy, and blasphemy, and contention, which is hostile to holiness and
truth. How then can one who is baptized among them seem to have obtained remission of sins, and
the grace of the divine mercy, by his faith, when he has not the truth of the faith itself? For if, as
some suppose, one could receive anything abroad out of the Church according to his faith, certainly
he has received what he believed; but if he believes what is false, he could not receive what is true;
but rather he has received things adulterous and profane, according to what he believed.

Letter 72: 4-5

This form of baptism, considered heretical and invalid by Cyprian, is of course the only form of baptism known in both the letters of Paul (Gal 3:27, 1 Cor 1:7, Rom 6:3) and Acts of the Apostles (2:38, 10:48, 19:5).

But today only certain “oneness Pentecostals” baptize in the name of Jesus alone. All other Christians conform to the Trinitarian formula commanded by the risen Christ in Matthew 28:19. Agreement on Trinitarian baptism is even considered a foundational principle of ecumenism.

Cyprian is aware of the awkwardness. He makes a miserable argument, repeated down the centuries, that the apostles in Acts were concerned primarily with bringing the Jews up to date, who already worshipped the true Father, and therefore only needed the name of the Messiah. (Both Luke and Paul were writing about the baptism of gentiles, mainly.)

For Cyprian, the words of the risen Lord trump the words of Peter and Paul:

Let nothing be innovated, says he, nothing maintained, except what has been
handed down. Whence is that tradition? Whether does it descend from the authority of the Lord
and of the Gospel, or does it come from the commands and the epistles of the apostles? For that
those things which are written must be done, God witnesses and admonishes, saying to Joshua the
son of Nun: “The book of this law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate in it
day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein.” Also the
Lord, sending His apostles, commands that the nations should be baptized, and taught to observe
all things which He commanded. If, therefore, it is either prescribed in the Gospel, or contained in
the epistles or Acts of the Apostles, that those who come from any heresy should not be baptized,
but only hands laid upon them to repentance, let this divine and holy tradition be observed. But if
everywhere heretics are called nothing else than adversaries and antichrists, if they are pronounced
to be people to be avoided, and to be perverted and condemned of their own selves, wherefore is
it that they should not be thought worthy of being condemned by us, since it is evident from the
apostolic testimony that they are of their own selves condemned? So that no one ought to defame
the apostles as if they had approved of the baptisms of heretics, or had communicated with them
without the Church’s baptism
, when they, the apostles, wrote such things of the heretics. And this,
too, while as yet the more terrible plagues of heresy had not broken forth; while Marcion of Pontus
had not yet emerged from Pontus, whose master Cerdon came to Rome,—while Hyginus was still
bishop, who was the ninth bishop in that city,—whom Marcion followed, and with greater impudence
adding other enhancements to his crime, and more daringly set himself to blaspheme against God
the Father, the Creator, and armed with sacrilegious arms the heretical madness that rebelled against
the Church with greater wickedness and determination.

Letter 73: 2

Matthew’s Trinitarian form agrees with Justin (1 Apology, 61) and Didache 7, and becomes the standard Catholic practice with Tertullian and Cyprian.

(63) If one goes down to the water and comes up without taking anything and says “I am a Chrestian” then he has taken the name on loan. Yet if he takes the spirit which is pure, he has the gift of the name. He who has taken a gift doesn’t get her carried away from him – yet he who has taken on loan gets cut.
(72) Those who beget the name of the father, the child and the spirit which is pure don’t only beget them, but they are begotten to you. If one does not beget them, the other name will get carried away from him. Yet one takes them in the chrism of the […] of the power of the ⲥ⳨ⲟⲥ, which is what the apostles called “the right hand with the left hand” - this one Indeed is no longer a Chrestian, but an ΧΡΣ.

viewtopic.php?p=146150#p146150

According to Philip, Chrestians were baptised in the name of the father, son and holy spirit.

Re: Marcionites baptized in the name of Christ

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 4:49 pm
by Stuart
The key phrase you need to looks at in all Patristic writings about Marcion, among other heretics concerns the properties of the father: "Does he then assert the same Father, the Creator, as we do?"

All else derives from this property of godhood applied to the father. If this property is denied the father, and instead placed upon some archangel, then the Christ is not from the creation and the creator is not his father. And if he is not of this creation, then he cannot be the seed of any human line, since that is the creation.

This is why early Catholic creeds, when they decided to exclude Marcionites and others, added to the confession being of the seed of David. For Marcionites, being born at all via a woman, was sufficient. And it may have been an earlier more narrow creed, as others who could accept the father as creator also (either directly or passively allow angels to do so) did not all accept that Jesus had a human father, so emphasized divine seeding, and thus to a virgin (how else can she get pregnant?).

John the Baptist was removed by the Marcionite author, and it was a point of emphasis among that sect that Jesus arrived unannounced. Giuseppe's insistence that it was added by Mark is not correct, as the Marcionite gospel left many traces of the story elements elsewhere and includes the question of authority which presumes knowledge of a baptism scene starting the gospel; it's a reference to material not found in the gospel. But again it comes back to the property of the father.

The trinity element in the Patristic passage above suggests a late decades and even a century or so postmortem for the named author. We should always keep such inconsistencies in mind, just as we do reading NT text.

Re: Marcionites baptized in the name of Christ

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:12 pm
by MrMacSon
Cyprian was early 3rd century: c. 210 – September 258 AD. Soon after converting to Christianity, he became a bishop in Carthage in 249. He is said to have dealt with the Novatianist heresy in which an early Christian sect devoted to the theologian Novatian (c. 200–258) refused readmission to communion of lapsi: baptized Christians who had denied their faith or performed a ritual sacrifice to pagan gods under threat of persecution sanctioned by Emperor Decius in AD 250 (during which Cyprian went into hiding). Following letters by Cyprian of Carthage and Ambrose, the Church of Rome is said to have declared the Novatianists heretical.

(though the start of Epistle 72, below, suggests something else was [also] going on)

Cyprian wrote an Epistola ad Donatum de gratia Dei and Testimoniorum Libri III that is said to have adhere closely to the models of Tertullian, who influenced his style and thinking.

Epistle 72:


[Cyprian Refutes a Letter Enclosed to Him by Jubaianus, and, with the Greatest Care, Collects Whatever He Thinks Will Avail for the Defence of His Cause. Moreover, He Sends Jubaianus a Copy of the Letter to the Numidians and to Quintus, and Probably the Decrees of the Last Synod.]

1. Cyprian to Jubaianus his brother, greeting. You have written to me, dearest brother, wishing that the impression of my mind should be signified to you, as to what I think concerning the baptism of heretics; who, placed without, and established outside the Church, arrogate to themselves a matter neither within their right nor their power. This baptism we cannot consider as valid or legitimate, since it is manifestly unlawful among them; and since we have already expressed in our letters what we thought on this matter, I have, as a compendious method, sent you a copy of the same letters, what we decided in council when very many of us were present, and what, moreover, I subsequently wrote back to Quintus, our colleague, when he asked about the same thing ...

2. Nor does what you have described in your letters disturb us, dearest brother, that the Novatians re-baptize those whom they entice from us, since it does not in any wise matter to us what the enemies of the Church do, so long as we ourselves hold a regard for our power, and the steadfastness of reason and truth. For Novatian, after the manner of apes — which, although they are not men, yet imitate human doings — wishes to claim to himself the authority and truth of the Catholic Church, while he himself is not in the Church ...

3. But among us it is no new or sudden thing for us to judge that those are to be baptized who come to the Church from among the heretics, since it is now many years and a long time ago, that, under Agrippinus— a man of worthy memory — very many bishops assembling together have decided this; and thenceforward until the present day, so many thousands of heretics in our provinces have been converted to the Church, and have neither despised nor delayed, nay, they have both reasonably and gladly embraced, the opportunity to attain the grace of the life-giving layer and of saving baptism. For it is not difficult for a teacher to insinuate true and lawful things into his mind, who, having condemned heretical pravity, and discovered the truth of the Church, comes for this purpose, that he may learn, and learns for the purpose that he may live. We ought not to increase the stolidity of heretics by the patronage of our consent, when they gladly and readily obey the truth.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050672.htm


Irish1975 wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:49 am
The letters of Cyprian indicate that Marcionite Christians of the 3rd century practiced “baptism in [or into] the name of Jesus Christ.” Cyprian decrees that such a baptism is invalid, since Marcionites believe in the wrong God.


4. Certainly, since I found in the letter the copy of which you transmitted to me, that it was written, “That it should not be asked who baptized, since he who is baptized might receive remission of sins according to what he believed,” I thought that this topic was not to be passed by, especially since I observed in the same epistle that mention was also made of Marcion, saying that
  • even those that came from him did not need to be baptized, because they seemed to have been already baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.”
Therefore we ought to consider their faith who believe without, whether in respect of the same faith they can obtain any grace.

For, if we and heretics have one faith, we may also have one grace. If the Patripassians, Anthropians, Valentinians, Apelletians, Ophites, Marcionites, and other pests and swords, and poisons of heretics for subverting the truth2853 confess the same Father, the same Son, the same Holy Ghost, the same Church with us, they may also have one baptism if they have also one faith.

5. And lest it should be wearisome to go through all the heresies, and to enumerate either the follies or the madness of each of them, because it is no pleasure to speak of that which one either dreads or is ashamed to know, let us examine in the meantime about Marcion alone, the mention of whom has been made in the letter transmitted by you to us, whether the ground of his baptism can be made good. For the Lord after His resurrection, sending His disciples, instructed and taught them in what manner they ought to baptize, saying,
  • All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”.2854
He [the Lord] suggests the Trinity, in whose sacrament the nations were to be baptized.

Does Marcion then maintain the Trinity? Does he then assert the same Father, the Creator, as we do? Does he know the same Son, Christ born of the Virgin Mary, who as the Word was made flesh, who bare our sins, who conquered death by dying, who by Himself first of all originated the resurrection of the flesh, and showed to His disciples that He had risen in the same flesh? Widely different is the faith with Marcion, and, moreover, with the other heretics; nay, with them there is nothing but perfidy, and blasphemy, and contention, which is hostile to holiness and truth. How then can one who is baptized among them seem to have obtained remission of sins, and the grace of the divine mercy, by his faith, when he has not the truth of the faith itself? For if, as some suppose, one could receive anything abroad out of the Church according to his faith, certainly he has received what he believed; but if he believes what is false, he could not receive what is true; but rather he has received things adulterous and profane, according to what he believed.

Letter 72: 4-5




Let nothing be innovated, says he, nothing maintained, except what has been handed down. Whence is that tradition? Whether does it descend from the authority of the Lord and of the Gospel, or does it come from the commands and the epistles of the apostles? For that those things which are written must be done, God witnesses and admonishes, saying to Joshua the son of Nun:
  • “The book of this law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate in it day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein.”
Also the Lord, sending His apostles, commands that the nations should be baptized, and taught to observe all things which He commanded. If, therefore, it is either prescribed in the Gospel, or contained in the epistles or Acts of the Apostles, that those who come from any heresy should not be baptized, but only hands laid upon them to repentance, let this divine and holy tradition be observed. But if everywhere heretics are called nothing else than adversaries and antichrists, if they are pronounced to be people to be avoided, and to be perverted and condemned of their own selves, wherefore is it that they should not be thought worthy of being condemned by us, since it is evident from the apostolic testimony that they are of their own selves condemned?

So that no one ought to defame the apostles as if they had approved of the baptisms of heretics, or had communicated with them without the Church’s baptism, when they, the apostles, wrote such things of the heretics. And this, too, while as yet the more terrible plagues of heresy had not broken forth; while Marcion of Pontus had not yet emerged from Pontus, whose master Cerdon came to Rome, while Hyginus - the ninth bishop in that city - was still bishop, whom Marcion followed, and with greater impudence adding other enhancements to his crime, and more daringly set himself to blaspheme against God the Father, the Creator, and armed with sacrilegious arms the heretical madness that rebelled against the Church with greater wickedness and determination.

Letter 73: 2


What do 2853 and 2854 say?