Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:02 pm https://www.academia.edu/42197042/THE_F ... N_AD_DINFI

If I post a link or reference to a book you tell me this is a discussion group and that I am out of order. So you keep your own rules and tell me what point you want to make.

Will you answer my earlier question without any equivocation:

Did the Samartans build a temple? And when was the first temple they built, if they did so?

And one more question because I am impatient and don't want to wait for you to go through more games trying to avoid giving a straight answer to that last question about the temple.....

What is the earliest evidence -- not late reports about some early time, but the earliest evidence itself -- for when the northern kingdom based around Samaria was known by the name "Israel"?

Maybe next time you are sitting at Boid's feet you can ask him that question.

Some Samaritans built a temple. Some Samaritans (Dositheans) objected.

Maybe next time you are sitting at Bold's feet you can ask him that question.

I only respected Boid, Baarda and Andrew (Criddle). That's it. Look at Boid's very meagre scholarly productivity. But what do you notice? https://independent.academia.edu/RuairidhB%C3%B3id Two academic papers written in French. He wrote another in German somewhere. Taught Hebrew. Reads Aramaic, Arabic, Greek, Latin. For me that's praiseworthy. But I am crazy.

What is the earliest evidence -- not late reports about some early time, but the earliest evidence itself -- for when the northern kingdom based around Samaria was known by the name "Israel"?

I don't know. But I know it's fucking early. Here is one reference:

The earliest mention of the word "Israel" comes from a stele (an inscription carved on stone) found in Thebes (modern day Luxor) and erected by the ancient Egyptian pharaoh Merneptah, who reigned from around 1213 B.C. to 1203 B.C. The inscription mentions a military campaign in the Levant during which Merneptah supposedly "laid waste" to "Israel" among other kingdoms and cities in the region.

https://books.google.com/books?id=U5f4E ... 22&f=false

The second reference is the Mesha Stele (845 BCE)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_Stele

Omri is a northern king.

I am Mesha, son of Chemosh-gad,[27] king of Moab, the Dibonite. My father reigned over Moab thirty years, and I have reigned after my father. And I have built this sanctuary for Chemosh in Karchah, a sanctuary of salvation, for he saved me from all aggressors, and made me look upon all mine enemies with contempt.

Omri was king of Israel, and oppressed Moab during many days, and Chemosh was angry with his aggressions. His son succeeded him, and he also said, I will oppress Moab. In my days he said, Let us go, and I will see my desire upon him and his house, and Israel said, I shall destroy it for ever. Now Omri took the land of Madeba, and occupied it in his day, and in the days of his son, forty years. And Chemosh had mercy on it in my time. And I built Baal-meon and made therein the ditch, and I built Kiriathaim.

And the men of Gad dwelled in the country of Ataroth from ancient times, and the king of Israel fortified Ataroth. I assaulted the wall and captured it, and killed all the warriors of the city for the well-pleasing of Chemosh and Moab, and I removed from it all the spoil, and offered it before Chemosh in Kirjath; and I placed therein the men of Siran, and the men of Mochrath. And Chemosh said to me, Go take Nebo against Israel, and I went in the night and I fought against it from the break of day till noon, and I took it: and I killed in all seven thousand men...women and maidens, for I devoted them to Ashtar-Chemosh; and I took from it the vessels of Jehovah, and offered them before Chemosh.

And the king of Israel fortified Jahaz, and occupied it, when he made war against me, and Chemosh drove him out before me, and I took from Moab two hundred men in all, and placed them in Jahaz, and took it to annex it to Dibon.

I built Karchah the wall of the forest, and the wall of the Hill. I have built its gates and I have built its towers. I have built the palace of the king, and I made the prisons for the criminals within the wall. And there were no wells in the interior of the wall in Karchah. And I said to all the people, 'Make you every man a well in his house.' And I dug the ditch for Karchah with the chosen men of Israel. I built Aroer, and I made the road across the Arnon. I built Beth-Bamoth for it was destroyed. I built Bezer for it was cut down by the armed men of Daybon, for all Daybon was now loyal; and I reigned from Bikran, which I added to my land. And I built Beth-Gamul, and Beth-Diblathaim...Beth Baal-Meon, and I placed there the poor people of the land.

And as to Horonaim, the men of Edom dwelt therein, on the descent from old. And Chemosh said to me, Go down, make war against Horonaim, and take it. And I assaulted it, And I took it, for Chemosh restored it in my days. Wherefore I made.... ...year...and I....

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:13 pm

What is the earliest evidence -- not late reports about some early time, but the earliest evidence itself -- for when the northern kingdom based around Samaria was known by the name "Israel"?

I don't know. But I know it's fucking early. Here is one reference:

The earliest mention of the word "Israel" comes from a stele (an inscription carved on stone) found in Thebes (modern day Luxor) and erected by the ancient Egyptian pharaoh Merneptah, who reigned from around 1213 B.C. to 1203 B.C. The inscription mentions a military campaign in the Levant during which Merneptah supposedly "laid waste" to "Israel" among other kingdoms and cities in the region.

Good. We are on the same page. There is one earlier reference but that's to a personal name, I believe, so we'll ignore that for now. But we both acknowledge the earliest reference otherwise.

The Merneptah stele says of Israel:


Kaput. No more Israel. Meneptah wiped Israel off the map around 1200 BCE -- the time many commentators have said was the era of the Exodus and Joshua's conquest of Canaan.

The next piece is not the Mesha stele but the Kurkh stele. That's earlier.

You have often written throwaway comments about what you seem to think I believe or have written but I don't think you have read very much at all and have some rather bizarre ideas about where I stand -- the latest being your over-strident insinuations that I didn't know the difference between the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. If you want to learn more about the earliest evidence for Israel I set out the details at http://vridar.info/bibarch/arch/davies5.htm -- just for your convenience!

Next question:

When did that Kingdom of Israel -- the one identified in the archaeological evidence from the time of Shalmaneser (the Kurkh stele) cease to exist? Again -- we are talking about evidence, not late reports of what supposedly happened.