neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:36 am
What follows is a quite different objection now, and that leads me to think your arguments are somewhat ad hoc. The above criticism of a classicist whose work had nothing to do with the Pentateuch -- even misreading his point about Carthage and Rome and presumably on that point alone mis-characterizing the entire body of evidence was somewhat speculative -- was presumably prompted by a concern that such a study was indeed very close to the kind of example you asked for in your earlier quote.
Since you've referred twice to this peripheral point, I'll clarify.
IMO there is no connection between the impossible demands made by the Romans as a pretext to destroy Carthage according to Diodorus Siculus;
Then the Romans arrived in Utica. Carthage again sent envoys to learn if the Romans had further demands to make upon them. When the consuls told them to surrender, without fraud, their arms and artillery, they were at first cast down, inasmuch as they were at war with Hasdrubal; none the less (the Romans) received from them two hundred thousand weapons of all sorts and two thousand catapults. Thereupon the Romans again sent word to the Carthaginians, bidding them appoint a delegation of Elders, to whom they would make known their final directive. The Carthaginians dispatched thirty men of the highest rank. Manilius, the elder of the consuls, stated that the senate had decreed that they should abandon the city they now inhabited, and should found another at a distance of eighty stades from the sea. At this the envoys resorted to lamentation and appeals for pity, all casting themselves to the ground and mingling cries of grief with tears. And a great wave of emotion swept over the assembly. When the Carthaginians after a struggle recovered from their consternation, one man alone, a certain Blanno, uttered words appropriate to the occasion, and speaking with desperate courage yet with complete frankness aroused feelings of pity in all who heard him.
The Romans, being immovable in their resolve to destroy Carthage, ordered the envoys to return straightway to Carthage and to report to the citizens what had been decreed. Some of the envoys, considering it hopeless to return home, individually sought refuge as best they could, but the others, electing to return, made their way back, their fatal mission completed. As the populace thronged to meet them, they said not a word to them, but beating their heads, raising aloft their hands, and calling upon the gods for aid, they proceeded to the market-place and reported to the gerousia the orders imposed by the Romans.
and Appian
Your ready obedience up to this point, Carthaginians, in the matter of the hostages and the arms, is worthy of all praise. In cases of necessity we must not multiply words. Bear bravely the remaining commands of the Senate. Yield Carthage to us, and betake yourselves where you like within your own territory at a distance of at least fifteen kilometers [original eighty stadia] from the sea, for we are resolved to raze your city to the ground."
While he was yet speaking, the Carthaginians lifted their hands toward heaven with loud cries, and called on the gods as avengers of violated faith. They heaped reproaches on the Romans, as if willing to die, or insane, or determined to provoke the Romans to sacrilegious violence to ambassadors. They flung themselves on the ground and beat it with their hands and heads. Some of them even tore their clothes and lacerated their flesh as though they were absolutely bereft of their senses. After the first frenzy was past there was great silence and prostration as of men lying dead.
The Romans were struck with amazement, and the consuls thought it best to bear with men who were overwhelmed at an appalling command until their indignation should subside, for they well knew that great dangers often bring desperate courage on the instant, which time and necessity gradually subdue. This was the case with the Carthaginians, for when the sense of their calamity came over them, during the interval of silence, they ceased their reproaches and began to bewail, with fresh lamentations, their own fate and that of their wives and children, calling them by name, and also their country, as though she could hear their cries like a human being. The priests invoked their temples, and the gods within them, as though they were present, accusing them of being the cause of their destruction. So pitiable was this mingling together of public and private grief that it drew tears from the Romans themselves.
[82] The consuls, although moved to pity by this exhibition of the mutability of human affairs, awaited with stern countenances the end of their lamentations. When their outcries ceased there was another interval of silence, in which they reflected that their city was without arms, that it was empty of defenders, that it had not a ship, not a catapult, not a javelin, not a sword, nor a sufficient number of fighting men, having lost 50,000 a short time ago. They had neither mercenaries, nor friends, nor allies, nor time to procure any. Their enemies were in possession of their children, their arms, and their territory. Their city was besieged by foes provided with ships, infantry, cavalry, and engines, while Massinissa, their other enemy, was on their flank. Seeing the uselessness of lamentation and reproaches they desisted from them, and again began to talk. Banno, surnamed Tigillas, the most distinguished man among them, having obtained permission to speak, said:
[83] "If it is permitted to repeat what we have already said to you, Romans, we would speak once more, not as though we were contending for rights (since disputation is never timely for the unfortunate), but that you may perceive that pity on your part toward us is not without excuse and not without reason. We were once the rulers of Africa and of the greater part of the sea, and we contended with yourselves for empire. We desisted from this in the time of Scipio,note when we gave up to you all the ships and elephants we had. We agreed to pay you tribute and we pay it at the appointed time.
Now, in the name of the gods who witnessed the oaths, spare us, respect the oath sworn by Scipio that the Romans and Carthaginians should be allies and friends. We have not violated the treaty. We have no ships, no elephants. The tribute is not in default. On the contrary, we have fought on your side against three kings. You must not take offense at this recital, although we mentioned it before when you demanded our arms. Our calamities make us verbose, and nothing gives more force to an appeal than the terms of a treaty. Nor can we take refuge in anything else than words, since we have given all other power over to you. Such, Romans, were the former conditions, for which Scipio was our surety.
Of the present ones you, consuls, are yourselves the doers and the witnesses. You asked hostages, and we gave you our best. You asked for our arms, and you have received them all, which even captured cities do not willingly give up. We had confidence in your habits and your character. Your Senate sent us word, and you confirmed it, when the hostages were demanded, that if they were delivered, Carthage should be left free and autonomous. If it was added that we should endure your further commands it was not to be expected that in the matter of the hostages you would, in your distinct demand, promise that the city should be independent, and then besides the hostages would make a further demand that Carthage itself be destroyed. If it is right for you to destroy it, how can you leave it free and autonomous as you said you would?
and the location of the new colony in the Laws.
ATHENIAN: And now, what will this city be? I do not mean to ask what is or will hereafter be the name of the place; that may be determined by the accident of locality or of the original settlement—a river or fountain, or some local deity may give the sanction of a name to the newly-founded city; but I do want to know what the situation is, whether maritime or inland.
CLEINIAS: I should imagine, Stranger, that the city of which we are speaking is about eighty stadia distant from the sea.
ATHENIAN: And are there harbours on the seaboard?
CLEINIAS: Excellent harbours, Stranger; there could not be better.
ATHENIAN: Alas! what a prospect! And is the surrounding country productive, or in need of importations?
CLEINIAS: Hardly in need of anything.
ATHENIAN: And is there any neighbouring State?
CLEINIAS: None whatever, and that is the reason for selecting the place; in days of old, there was a migration of the inhabitants, and the region has been deserted from time immemorial.
ATHENIAN: And has the place a fair proportion of hill, and plain, and wood?
CLEINIAS: Like the rest of Crete in that.
ATHENIAN: You mean to say that there is more rock than plain?
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
ATHENIAN: Then there is some hope that your citizens may be virtuous: had you been on the sea, and well provided with harbours, and an importing rather than a producing country, some mighty saviour would have been needed, and lawgivers more than mortal, if you were ever to have a chance of preserving your state from degeneracy and discordance of manners (compare Ar. Pol.). But there is comfort in the eighty stadia; although the sea is too near, especially if, as you say, the harbours are so good. Still we may be content. The sea is pleasant enough as a daily companion, but has indeed also a bitter and brackish quality; filling the streets with merchants and shopkeepers, and begetting in the souls of men uncertain and unfaithful ways—making the state unfriendly and unfaithful both to her own citizens, and also to other nations. There is a consolation, therefore, in the country producing all things at home; and yet, owing to the ruggedness of the soil, not providing anything in great abundance. Had there been abundance, there might have been a great export trade, and a great return of gold and silver; which, as we may safely affirm, has the most fatal results on a State whose aim is the attainment of just and noble sentiments: this was said by us, if you remember, in the previous discussion.
Andrew Criddle
