Only Fantastically Amazing People Think We Have The Ur-Canon

[Stephan Huller]

The bottom line is why can Celsus see that Mark, Matthew and Luke are obvious expansions but Irenaeus gets away pretending they are not.

[Stephan Huller]

And Galatians 2 doesn't make sense from a Marcionite POV if Luke is the gospel in question (i.e. stolen by the Jerusalem Church and altered). The false gospel of the Jerusalem Church has to resemble Paul's

[Peter Kirby]

The bottom line is why can Celsus see that Mark, Matthew and Luke are obvious expansions but Irenaeus gets away pretending they are not.

I missed something. What does Celsus say?

Did anyone ever tell you that you're in need of an editor?

Your notes are interesting, but they're all over the place. I'm not sure what to make of them (or even what I'm supposed to make of them).

[Bernard Muller]

The bottom line is why can Celsus see that Mark, Matthew and Luke are obvious expansions but Irenaeus gets away pretending they are not.

Show the evidence, please.

Cordially, Bernard

[Stephan Huller]

I wrote the comment as I was literally walking out the door to take my son to practice soccer. Here is the original reference (I assume these things are as familiar to most of as how ugly we look in the mirror):

After this he [Celsus] says, that certain of the Christian believers, like persons who in a fit of drunkenness lay violent hands upon themselves, have corrupted the original Gospel (τῆς πρώτης γραφῆς τὸ εὐαγγέλιον), to a threefold (τριχῇ), and fourfold (καὶ τετραχῇ), and many-fold degree (καὶ πολλαχῇ), and have remodeled it (καὶ μεταπλάττειν), so that they might be able to answer objections. [2:27]

Please don't ask me to cite how many people take this to be a reference to the canon. There's lots. But then think about what Celsus is actually saying if 'threefold' and 'fourfold' are references to the canonical gospels ...

The Marcionites said something generally similar - the canonical gospels were forgeries pretending to be written by the disciples but were really corruptions of their gospels. Hmmm.

[Stephan Huller]

Actually I am looking at the original Greek of Origen:

Μετὰ ταῦτά τινας τῶν πιστευόντων φησὶν ὡς ἐκ μέθης ἥκοντας εἰς τὸ ἐφεστάναι αὑτοῖς μεταχαράττειν ἐκ τῆς πρώτης γραφῆς τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τριχῇ καὶ τετραχῇ καὶ πολλαχῇ καὶ μεταπλάττειν, ἵν' ἔχοιεν πρὸς τοὺς ἐλέγχους ἀρνεῖσθαι.

The Greek literally says:

After this he [Celsus] says, that certain of the Christian believers, like persons who in a fit of drunkenness lay violent hands upon themselves, have corrupted the first book/text the Gospel (τῆς πρώτης γραφῆς τὸ εὐαγγέλιον), to a threefold (τριχῇ), and fourfold (καὶ τετραχῇ), and many-fold degree (καὶ πολλαχῇ), and have remodeled it (καὶ μεταπλάττειν), so that they might be able to answer objections. [2:27]

Compare with Dionysius:

ὑπεσχόμην γὰρ ἐπὶ τῷ τέλει τῆς πρώτης γραφῆς, ἣν περὶ τοῦ γένους αὐτῶν συνταξάμενος ἐξέδωκα, μυρίοις βεβαιώσειν τεκμηρίοις τὴν πρόθεσιν, ἔθη καὶ νόμιμα καὶ ἐπιτηδεύματα παλαιὰ παρεχόμενος αὐτῶν, ἃ μέχρι τοῦ κατ᾽ ἐμὲ φυλάττουσι χρόνου, οἷα παρὰ τῶν προγόνων ἐδέξαντο

For I promised at the end of the first Book, which I composed and published concerning their origin,38 that I would demonstrate this thesis by countless proofs, by citing time-honoured customs, laws and institutions which they preserve down to my time just as they received them from their ancestors

Isn't that exactly what I am saying? Maybe I got the idea from Celsus. I don't remember any longer. What about:

Some believers, just like people who are drunk and hit themselves with their own hands, modified the original text of the Gospel (τῆς πρώτης γραφῆς τὸ εὐαγγέλιον), to a threefold (τριχῇ), and fourfold (καὶ τετραχῇ), and many-fold degree (καὶ πολλαχῇ), and have remodeled it (καὶ μεταπλάττειν), so that they might be able to answer objections. [2:27]

Sorry I just assume everyone knows these references as well as I do

[Stephan Huller]

http://books.google.com/books?id=LvMOAA ... ls&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=A7wNGM ... ls&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=lMUZhd ... ls&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Se0tkQ ... ls&f=false

[Stephan Huller]

67 Marcion was in a long line of people who used the single long gospel (with Paraclete = person reference)

If Muhammad (or one of his informants or collaborators, in theory) had been familiar with the integrated Gospel, the Diatessaron, it is clear that, as far as he knew, the Diatessaron had probably been composed in Syriac. Having said that, it is not easy to know which Gospel text Muhammad could have been familiar with. However, there are a few rare direct references in the Qurʾān to the Gospels. Thus Q. 48: 29: “Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel— like as sown corn that sendeth forth its shoot and strengthenth it and riseth firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers – that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them. God hath promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward." This text combines two Gospel pericopes – Mark 4:26–7 and Matthew 12:23 – the same amalgam that the Diatessaron makes, seen for example in the Middle-Dutch translation thereof, done in the thirteenth century from a lost Latin translation, and in the Arabic translations thereof.

Van Reeth applies the same treatment to the passages of the Qur'an which pertain to the infancy of Mary (Q 3:35–48), John (Q 19:3), and Jesus (Q 3:37; 19:22–6), showing again that “le Coran témoigne de la tradition du Diatessaron.”108 He does the same again with the Docetist version of the Crucifixion of Jesus (Q 4:157), but in this case he refers to Angel-Christology (cf. G. Lüling), notably that of the Elkesaites, declaring: “Plutôt qu'un simulacre que Dieu aurait façonné et substitué au Christ pour être crucifié à sa place, il s'agit originalement de la forme humaine que Dieu a instaurée pour Jésus au moment de l'incarnation et dans laquelle sa personne transcendante et angélique pouvait descendre.”109 Even if the Diatessaron does not explain all of the Qur'anic particularities on the life of Jesus, Van Reeth makes the following conclusion: “En se référant au Diatessaron comme l'avait fait Mani avant lui, le Prophète Muhammad pouvait souligner l'unicité du message évangélique. En outre, il s'inscrivait dansla longue lignée de Marcion de Tatien et de Mani. Tous ont voulu (ré)tablir le vrai Évangile, afin d'en atteindre le sens original. Ils se croyaient autorisés à faire de travail d'harmonisation textuelle parce qu'ils s'assimilaient au Paraclet que Jésus avait annoncé.” [Claude Gilliot, The Authorship of the Quran in the Quran in its Historical Context p. 99 http://books.google.com/books?id=LKt8Ag ... 22&f=false

[Stephan Huller]

My suspicion is that it was deemed that the one, long gospel had to be split and its Paraclete prophesy diluted in order to prevent Muhammad from appearing in the late second century.

[Stephan Huller]

68 Marcion's gospel contained sayings from John:

"sitting at the Savior's right and left" (Matt. 20.21) applies to Paul and Marcion: Paul sits at his right hand and Marcion at his left. Others read the passage, 'I will send you an advocate, the Spirit of Truth' (Jn. 14.16-17) and are unwilling to understand a third person beside the Father and the Son, a divine and exalted nature. They take it to mean the apostle Paul." [Origen Homily on Luke 25]

The full citation:

The apostle Paul warns against inordinate and irrational love when he says of himself, "I fear that someone might have an opinion of me above what he sees or hears from me, and that the greatness of the revelations might exalt me," and so on. (2 Cor 12:6-7) Paul feared that even he might fall into this error. So he was unwilling to state everything about himself that he knew. He wanted no one to think more of him than he saw or, going beyond the limits of honor, to say what had been said about john, that "he was the Christ." Some people said this even about Dositheus, the heresiarch of the Samaritans; others said it also about judas the Galilean. Finally, some people burst forth into such great audacity of love that they invented new and unheard of exaggerations about Paul. For, some say this, that the passage in Scripture that speaks of "sitting at the Savior's right and left" (Mk 10:38) applies to Paul and Marcion: Paul sits at his right hand and Marcion at his left. Others read the passage, "I shall send you an advocate, the Spirit of Truth," (Jn 14:16) and are unwilling to understand a third person besides the Father and the Son, a divine and exalted nature. They take it to mean the apostle Paul. Do not all of these seem to you to have loved more than is fitting and, while they admired the virtue of each, to have lost moderation in love?" [Origen, Homilies on Luke 23]

The 'others' are clearly 'other Marcionites,' other than the 'official' claim that they only used Luke which is confirmed by the Acts of Archelaus where the bishop of Harran, Archelaus (the man who serves 'Marcion' viz Marcellus) repeatedly declares:

for our Lord Jesus Christ says of this Paraclete, He shall receive of mine. Him therefore He selected as an acceptable vessel; and He sent this Paul to us [AA 34]

the Paraclete, could not come into any other, but could only come upon ... the sainted Paul. For he is a chosen vessel, He says, unto me, to bear my name before kings and the Gentiles. The apostle himself, too, states the same thing in his first epistle, where he says: According to the grace that is given to me of God, that I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the Gospel of God. I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost. And again: For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not wrought by me by word and deed. I am the last of all the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle. But by the grace of God I am what I am. And it, is his wish to have to deal with those who sought the proof of that Christ who spoke in him, for this reason, that the Paraclete was in him: and as having obtained His gift of grace, and as being enriched with magnificent, honour, he says: For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And He said unto me, My grace is sufficient for you; for strength is made perfect in weakness. Again, that it was the Paraclete Himself who was in Paul, is indicated by our Lord Jesus Christ in the Gospel, when He says: If you love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray my Father, and He shall give you another Comforter. In these words He points to the Paraclete Himself, for He speaks of another Comforter. And hence we have given credit to Paul, and have hearkened to him when he says, Or do you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me? and when he expresses himself in similar terms, of which we have already spoken above. [AA 35]

Mani clearly grew out of the Marcionite interpretation (for he claims he is the Paraclete in the text. So too Muhammad for they all used the same 'Diatessaronic' gospel text which identified the Paraclete as a person rather than the Holy Spirit. One must also suspect that pre-canonical Montanists similarly used a Diatessaronic gospel with this understanding.

Certain followers of Marcion identified the 'other Paraclete' of Jo. 14,16 with St. Paul; cf. H.B. Swete, The Holy Spirit in the Ancient Church (London, 1912), 65-66 "The apostle Paul warns against inordinate and irrational love when he says of himself, "I fear that someone might have an opinion of me above what he sees or hears from me, and that the greatness of the revelations might exalt me," and so on. (2 Cor 12:6-7) Paul feared that even he might fall into this error. So he was unwilling to state everything about himself that he knew. He wanted no one to think more of him than he saw or, going beyond the limits of honor, to say what had been said about john, that "he was the Christ" ... For, some say this, that the passage in Scripture that speaks of "sitting at the Savior's right and left" (Mt 20.21) applies to Paul and Marcion: Paul sits at his right hand and Marcion at his left. Others read the passage, "I shall send you an advocate, the Spirit of Truth," (Jn 14:16) and are unwilling to understand a third person besides the Father and the Son, a divine and exalted nature. They take it to mean the apostle Paul. [Origen Homilies on Luke 25]

Certain followers of Marcion identified the 'other Paraclete' of Jo. 14,16 with St. Paul; cf. H.B. Swete, The Holy Spirit in the Ancient Church (London, 1912), 65-66 "The apostle Paul warns against inordinate and irrational love when he says of himself, "I fear that someone might have an opinion of me above what he sees or hears from me, and that the greatness of the revelations might exalt me," and so on. (2 Cor 12:6-7) Paul feared that even he might fall into this error. So he was unwilling to state everything about himself that he knew. He wanted no one to think more of him than he saw or, going beyond the limits of honor, to say what had been said about john, that "he was the Christ" ... For, some say this, that the passage in Scripture that speaks of "sitting at the Savior's right and left" (Mt 20.21) applies to Paul and Marcion: Paul sits at his right hand and Marcion at his left. Others read the passage, "I shall send you an advocate, the Spirit of Truth," (Jn 14:16) and are unwilling to understand a third person besides the Father and the Son, a divine and exalted nature. They take it to mean the apostle Paul. [Origen Homilies on Luke 25]

In his Homilies on Luke 25,5, after discussing the Marcionite exaltation of Paul, Origen says that "Others read the passage, 'I shall send you an advocate, the Spirit of Truth' [Jn 14,16-17] and... they take it to mean the apostle Paul" (trans. J. Lienhard, Origen) [Rosenstiel the Apocalypse of Paul p. 151]

So then Christ, our most patient Lord, has through all these years borne with a perversion of the preaching about himself, until, if you please, Marcion should come to his rescue. [Tertullian Adv Marc 1.20]

As corrector apparently of a gospel which from the times of Tiberius to those of Antoninus had suffered subversion, Marcion comes to light, first and alone, after Christ had waited for him all that time, repenting of having been in a hurry to send forth apostles without Marcion to protect them. [Adv Marc 4.4]

"the type of the Paraclete, Paul became the Apostle of the Resurrection" (ho Paulos anastaseōs Apostolos gegonen) [Theodotos 23]