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Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:11 pm
by MrMacSon
Paul the Uncertain wrote:
... in Jesus studies ... [t]he two leading hypotheses are:


A recently deceased man soon came to be interpreted as a newly revealed god.

A newly revealed god soon came to be interpreted as a recently deceased man.
.

In what sense is the first more or less "complex" than the second?

To borrow Wolgang Pauli's famous dictum, applying Occam's Razor to decide between these hypotheses is "not even wrong."

.
I'd say that second option should be


.A newly revealed [divine being which] came to be [portrayed] as a [fairly] recently deceased man.
.

ie. a man said to have manifest on earth as a new creation, representative of the newly redefined Supreme God the Father.

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:44 pm
by MrMacSon
MrMacSon wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:11 pm
I'd say that second option should be


.A newly revealed [divine being which] came to be [portrayed] as a [fairly] recently deceased man.
.

  • or, the somewhat tongue-in-cheek proposal of Jörg Rüpke in his 2018 book, Pantheon (which a few other scholars seem to share), that the NT Jesus was created whole-cloth by Marcion or whoever wrote the Marcionite Euangelion (this depends on Marcionite Priority which is independent of who wrote that Euangelion).

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:45 pm
by rgprice
Yeah, I mean... ugg, come on.

It's always the same old crap. Tim and PZ Meyers must be best buds. They both try to sound soo "rational", and then go about completely distorting the issue in order to to so come off as "serious minded moderates".

But of course they completely fail to address the most serious scholarship and instead go on adn on about the most fringe or extravagant claims.
But in Jesus studies? The two leading hypotheses are:

A) A recently deceased man soon came to be interpreted as a newly revealed god.
B) A newly revealed god soon came to be interpreted as a recently deceased man.

In what sense is the first more or less "complex" than the second?
This is exactly right. And I would argue, simply on the face of it, before even dealing with any serious research, that B is more probable than A. The reason being is that in Christian literature we see that "Jesus" is worshiped as a deity right from the very beginning. And what examples do we have of Jewish people being worshiped as gods? None.

There is in fact no real model for how a human being would come to be worshiped as a deity, the creator of the universe, a figure who would judge the world, a figure who overcame death and rose from the grave, etc.

If we acknowledge that no real human being can rise from the grave, how do we explain the fact that the worship of Jesus clearly rests upon his rising from the grave? The explanations for this have always been extremely weak and based on nothing more than just guesses and rationalizations.

"Maybe he didn't really die, and later came back to life". Total nonsense of course and not supported by any of the literature. People weren't worshiping some person who was running around after a failed execution, they were worshiping a "son of God" in heaven.

"His followers were so grieved that they couldn't believe he really died, and so deified him." Ok, then why didn't they write anything about this actual person and what he did that was so great? (We'll address this more later) Why was there no movement based on the deeds of this person's life, instead only focused on an imagined figure after his death? There were literally thousand upon thousands of people crucified in the first century CE alone. What would make this person's death so special?

All of the early Christian writers tell us exactly why they worshiped "Jesus". Because he fulfilled prophecies, performed miracles, and rose from the dead. None of those things are real. Every single one of those attributes is a supernatural fabrication. What were the underlying characteristics of the real person that led people to attribute these supernatural powers to him? There is no answer. His teachings? Not a single early non-Gospel writer attributes teachings to Jesus or says anything about worshiping him because of teachings. There is nothing in the teachings of Jesus that stands out as anything special that hadn't already been said by many other people.

Let's be real, the "case" for historicity rests on tradition and starting assumptions. It has nothing to do with evidence.

Now, when we get to "mythicism", the case is far more plausible.

#1 There appears to be some human figure behind the character of the Gospels. Yes, that's true. That figure is Paul.

The Gospels are best understood, at least in their origination, as allegorical introductions to the Pauline letters. The Gospel story is based thoroughly on two main sources (though there are also others): 1. The Jewish scriptures, 2. The Pauline letters. The Gospels never existed independently from the Pauline letters. The two go hand-in-hand. The story is derived from the letter collection.

There should be no doubt whatsoever that the Jesus figure of the Gospels is not based on the life of any real person, other than Paul. The Gospel stories are not accounts of real events. Virtually every scene in the Gospels can be traced back to either a scriptural or Pauline source. The story is pieced together from other literary sources that have nothing to do with any accounts of a person named Jesus, nor even of any teachings attributed to a Jesus person. To the extent that any "sayings" were ever attributed to "Jesus", these were nothing more than the typical "sayings of the Lord" that we encounter regularly in the Jewish scriptures.

#2 It is beyond evident that the belief that Jesus was a real person stemmed entire from the Gospel stories. Every single source we know of that discusses the humanity of Jesus does so on the basis of the Gospel writings.

#3 The readers of the Gospel writings clearly did not understand their provenance. Modern scholarship is unanimous in rejecting the believed provenance of the Gospel held by the Patristic Fathers. Yet, their flawed understanding of the provenance of these materials was absolutely foundational to their belief that what these writings said was literally true. It was because they believed that the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were authentic writings that had been produced by direct and secondary followers of Jesus, which were independently produced, and which corroborated each other on major points, that they held the accounts to be reliable and factual.

Essentially everything about the "nature of Jesus" rested on the reliability of these Gospel accounts. Without them, nothing is known about Jesus the person.

So any defense of the "historicity of Jesus" has to be founded upon a defense of the historical credibility of the Gospel accounts. And I know, factually, that the Gospel shave zero historical credibility. The basis of the Gospels accounts can, and has been, demonstrated. The basis is the Gospel accounts is the Jewish scriptures and the Pauline letters -- nothing more.

Now, when we speak of "parsimony", I would submit that, right or wrong, the model I have put forward to explain the origin and development of Christian writings, and thus "Christianity", is far more parsimonious than those of historicity.

1) At some point from the mid-first century to early second century some group of people worshiped "the Lord" of the Jewish scriptures as a power separate from the "Highest God" of the Jewish scriptures. Mountains of evidence shows that there were many different interpretations of the Jewish scriptures, from which these types of interpretations developed.

2) Someone or some group of people acted as "missionaries" to a network of "God-fearing" assemblies that included Jewish proselytes and the like, who worshiped and interacted with Judaism in a variety of perhaps unconventional ways. Someone or some people produced writings that described the beliefs and administration of these assemblies. These writings were put into a collection at some point, and came to be known as the "Letters of Paul".

3) With a collection of the "Letters of Paul" in hand, someone wrote an allegorical story as an introduction to this Pauline letter collection. This story uses the Jewish scriptures to develop a narrative casts events leading up to the destruction of the "Second Temple" in the setting of the events that led up to the destruction of the "First Temple". The storyline of this narrative follows the narrative of 1 & 2 Kings and various prophets, who supposedly predicted the fall of the First Temple. The narrative of the Gospel story re-creates these narratives and prophecies in a narrative that shows the Jews repeating the errors of their ancestors, leading once again to the fall of the Jewish "House of God" whereby the favor of God then transfers from the Jews to "the nations". The writer incorporates Pauline teachings to show that the errors of the Jews were a result of not following Pauline teachings.

4) This collection, with the "introductory story" to the Pauline letters was received by different Pauline communities who modified and expanded upon it.

5) Various interpretations of these writings developed. The introductory allegory was interpretated literally by many readers, as frequently happened.

And basically the rest develops from there.

This is actually quite simple. Everything stems from the misinterpretation of an allegorical story, which was based on the Pauline writings.

Trying to explain how a real person inspired all of this and how, and why these writings were inspired by the life of a real person, requires far more complexity.

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:07 pm
by neilgodfrey
All the reports about Jesus go back to the one source of tradition, early Christianity itself, and there are no data available in Jewish or Gentile secular history which could be used as controls.
-- Schweitzer wrote that over 100 years ago (1913 in German) and it still stands.

In other words, there is simply not enough information to know if Jesus was a historical person.

The best we can do is hypothesize, infer, guess, speculate, or have faith. We can look at other facts in the records and conclude or infer that the best explanation for these is that they are based on a historical Jesus. But that's the best we can do.

The question is irrelevant for the historian. What is relevant is a quest to explain the origins of the sources. If that quest leads to a person, so be it -- but in that case the person will be a conclusion, not a starting base that we can explore in its own right.

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:23 pm
by dbz
rgprice wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:45 pm Yeah, I mean... ugg, come on.

It's always the same old crap. Tim and PZ Meyers must be best buds. They both try to sound soo "rational", and then go about completely distorting the issue in order to to so come off as "serious minded moderates".

But of course they completely fail to address the most serious scholarship . . .
Specifically:

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:29 pm
by MrMacSon
rgprice wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:45 pm
... in Christian literature we see that "Jesus" is worshiped as a deity right from the very beginning
.
Your whole post makes some excellent points.

There's a few different, often ironic contexts to this^ point: " 'Jesus' is worshiped as a deity right from the very beginning "

These include but are not limited to:
  1. Apologetic Christian theologians argue this same point ie. they argue what they call Jesus' high Christology from the get-go.
    .
  2. Jesus', as you outline in your post (and probably elsewhere), is a literary character; and he is mostly anthropomorphised in the canonical Gospels which, in turn, are dependent on or co-dependent with Paul ie. they're not independent of Paul:

    rgprice wrote:
    #1 There appears to be some human figure behind the character of the Gospels. Yes, that's true. That figure is Paul.

    The Gospels are best understood, at least in their origination, as allegorical introductions to the Pauline letters. The Gospel story is based thoroughly on two main sources (though there are also others): 1. The Jewish scriptures, 2. The Pauline letters. The Gospels never existed independently from the Pauline letters. The two go hand-in-hand. The story is derived from the letter collection.

    There should be no doubt whatsoever that the Jesus figure of the Gospels is not based on the life of any real person, other than Paul. The Gospel stories are not accounts of real events. Virtually every scene in the Gospels can be traced back to either a scriptural or Pauline source. The story is pieced together from other literary sources that have nothing to do with any accounts of a person named Jesus, nor even of any teachings attributed to a Jesus person ...
    .

    And
    rgprice wrote:
    3) With a collection of the "Letters of Paul" in hand, someone wrote an allegorical story as an introduction to this Pauline letter collection. This story uses the Jewish scriptures to develop a narrative casts events leading up to the destruction of the "Second Temple" in the setting of the events that led up to the destruction of the "First Temple". The storyline of this narrative follows the narrative of 1 & 2 Kings and various prophets, who supposedly predicted the fall of the First Temple. The narrative of the Gospel story re-creates these narratives and prophecies in a narrative that shows the Jews repeating the errors of their ancestors, leading once again to the fall of the Jewish "House of God" whereby the favor of God then transfers from the Jews to "the nations". The writer incorporates Pauline teachings to show that the errors of the Jews were a result of not following Pauline teachings.

    4) This collection, with the "introductory story" to the Pauline letters was received by different Pauline communities who modified and expanded upon it.
    .

rgprice wrote: And what examples do we have of Jewish people being worshiped as gods? None.
  • Exactly. Though, it is said Simon Bar Kosiba aka Bar Kokhba was portrayed, in the 130s AD/CE, as a Messiah (not quite a deity(?))

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:14 pm
by GakuseiDon
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:53 amI don't think that you and I are in desperate disagreement about the things O'Neill says. The items you quote from the transcript are very similar with remarks he's posted on his blog for years now.

Put aside the irony of resting the case for his own position upon the weak and notoriously subjective "Occam's Razor." "Entirely possible" is not in dispute, it is always entirely possible that human judgment errs. Meanwhile the case that he concedes could be mounted against his view is not very good in his estimation.
Yes, and he's investigated a lot of mythicist claims to arrive at his estimation. I feel exactly the same as Tim on this: it's possible there was no historical Jesus HOWEVER all the mythicist theories I've looked into (admittedly as a strict amateur) seem to have less going for them than some kind of historical Jesus. I haven't looked into them all, so there might be one out there that has a better case than historicity. But it is what it is. I guess Tim would feel the same.
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:53 amHe compares the chances that that case will ever develop successfully with the (entirely possible) hypothesis that Jesus is coming back.
Tim jokingly compares the two. As Tim is an atheist, I very much doubt he believes that Jesus is coming back. The joke was around the strength of commitment to an idea, rather than the strength of the ideas themselves.
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:53 amETA: My own quixotic hobby horse is to aspire to implement the advice a philosopher once gave me: argue against the best possible case that you are wrong, not (or at least not only) against the actual cases that people have made which have failed to convince you. In the real world, and even in much of the academy, people don't often argue that way, so this is not a specific knock on O'Neill.
I have to ask: I'm afraid I don't know your views around the topic of historicity/mythicism, but for you personally, what is the best possible case that you are wrong?

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:48 pm
by ABuddhist
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:14 pm
Tim jokingly compares the two. As Tim is an atheist, I very much doubt he believes that Jesus is coming back.
The problem is, I think, that too many scholars dedicated to studying Jesus believe that Jesus will come back.

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:59 pm
by GakuseiDon
ABuddhist wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:48 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:14 pmTim jokingly compares the two. As Tim is an atheist, I very much doubt he believes that Jesus is coming back.
The problem is, I think, that too many scholars dedicated to studying Jesus believe that Jesus will come back.
That's definitely true.

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:56 pm
by Secret Alias
I don't think that's true any more. Young professors are not as naive as you think. What I think is the bigger problem is that young and old people have always lacked critical reasoning skills. What I mean is that we have a book or books called "gospel" or the gospel which has a portrait of someone which almost certainly is not true. I don't think it is reasonable to assume that Jesus did or said much or most of the things in the gospel. I would even venture to suggest that our order of things done and said by Jesus was different than most second century groups. To that end we have to wonder what it means when we speak about "Jesus" existing. The Jesus from the gospel? Is he historical? Certainly not. So what kind of "Jesus" are we talking about? A Jewish revolutionary? A Samaritan prophet? A cynic philosopher? A this or that? I don't know but I think it is safe to conclude the Jesus we know never existed. If there was a historical Jesus he was so different from what we know it is as if he didn't exist anyway.