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Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:46 pm
by dbz
The proper question is rather a largely literary question than an historical one. Until we have texts, which bear evidence of his historicity, we can not do much more with that issue. We can and must, however, ask what the texts mean—as well as ask what they mean if they are not historical (a minimalist question).


--Thomas L. Thompson [ap. Godfrey, Neil (9 February 2020). "Interview with Thomas L. Thompson #2". Vridar.]

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 6:48 pm
by rgprice
But GD, hypotheses about "oral tradition", etc. are all unprovable and unsupported.

Yet, the evidence that the Gospel of Mark follows the narrative from 1 & 2 Kings and that the scenes are all crafted from scriptural allusions relevant to the destruction of the Temple is concrete, factual and verifiable. The evidence that the Gospel of Mark is written as an introduction to the Pauline letter collection is likewise provable with real material evidence.

So I don't see how anyone can claim that there is "nothing" to go on.

There is no viable model for the development of early Christian literature based on the life of a real person. None at all. The case really is just purely," People have believed it for a long time, so it must be!" That's it!

The evidence showing that the Gospel are not based in any way shape or form on the life of a real person named Jesus is really overwhelming and concrete. Nothing on the historicist side even comes close.

This is historicism:

In the spring of 30 A.D. (or possibly 33), Jesus journeyed to Jerusalem for his final Passover. As he entered the ancient capital of King David, he apparently chose to make a symbolic claim to messianic status by riding in on a donkey amid the acclamation of his followers (multiple attestation of Mark 11:1-10 and John 12:12-19), thus evoking the memory of a prophecy by Zechariah (9:9) about a righteous, victorious, yet peaceful king entering Jerusalem on a donkey. Jesus followed up this symbolic entry with a symbolic action in the temple, disrupting the selling and buying of sacrificial animals (multiple attestation of Mark 11:15-17 and John 2:13-17). While this so-called cleansing of the temple has often been interpreted as a call for reform of the temple and a purer worship, in the context of Jesus' eschatological message it more likely symbolized the end of the old order, including the temple. These two symbolic actions of Jesus may have been the reason why the priestly aristocracy chose to arrest Jesus during this particular visit to Jerusalem, as opposed to his earlier stays. Jesus himself chose to press the issue, forcing the authorities to make a decision for or against him.

Various sayings in the Gospels that probably go back to Jesus show that he reckoned with the possibility of a violent death (Matt. 23:37-39; Luke 13:31-33; Mark 10:35-40; 8:32-33; 12:1-12).
- J. P. Meier; Jesus Christ in the New Testament: Part One: The Historical Jesus behind the Gospels; pp 15-16


Most scholars recognize that some aspects of our accounts appear exaggerated, including Mark’s claim that Jesus completely shut down the operation of the Temple (if no one could carry any vessels, it would have been impossible to sacrifice and butcher the animals—which was after all what the Temple was for). As we have seen, the Temple complex was immense, and there would have been armed guards present to prevent any major disturbances. Moreover, if Jesus had actually created an enormous stir in the Temple, it’s nearly impossible to explain why he wasn’t arrested on the spot and taken out of the way before he could stir up the crowds. For these reasons, it looks as if Mark’s account represents an exaggeration of Jesus’ actions. But exaggerations aside, it is almost certain that Jesus did something that caused a disturbance in the Temple — for example, overturned some tables and made at least a bit of a ruckus. As I’ve noted, the event is multiply attested in independent sources.

Moreover, it coincides with Jesus’ predictions about the Temple, that it would soon be destroyed. For this reason, a good number of scholars have begun to recognize that Jesus’ actions in the Temple represented a symbolic expression of his proclamation. We should recall that Jesus sometimes engaged in symbolic acts that illustrated his apocalyptic message
- Bart Ehrman; Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium; pp 212-213

Total and utter rubbish. Like elementary school level bad. As opposed to:

"We now arrive at one of the most important scenes for establishing our understanding of the Gospel called Mark and the other canonical Gospels. The reason that this scene is so important is because it is so widely believed to be historically true and it is seen as the justification for the Crucifixion. This scene is widely believed to be historically true because it exists in all four canonical Gospels, and it is not supernatural, so it is seemingly plausible. As we shall see throughout this book, however, the case against the historical validity of the temple-cleansing scene based on the literary evidence alone is overwhelming. So let’s start by looking at the literary allusion used to craft this scene.

Mark 11:
12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.
15 On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written:
“‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’? But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’”
18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.
19 When evening came, they went out of the city.
20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

This scene is clearly based on a passage from the book of Hosea, shown below:

Hosea 9:
1 Do not rejoice, O Israel; do not be jubilant like the other nations. For you have been unfaithful to your God; ...
7 The days of punishment are coming, the days of reckoning are at hand. Let Israel know this. Because your sins are so many and your hostility so great, the prophet is considered a fool, the inspired man a maniac.
8 The prophet, along with my God, is the watchman over Ephraim, yet snares await him on all his paths, and hostility in the house of his God.
9 They have sunk deep into corruption, as in the days of Gibeah. God will remember their wickedness and punish them for their sins.
10 ‘When I found Israel, it was like finding grapes in the desert; when I saw your fathers, it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree. But when they came to Baal Peor, they consecrated themselves to that shameful idol and became as vile as the thing they loved.
11 Ephraim’s glory will fly away like a bird—no birth, no pregnancy, no conception.
12 Even if they rear children, I will bereave them of every one. Woe to them when I turn away from them!
13 I have seen Ephraim, like Tyre, planted in a pleasant place. But Ephraim will bring out their children to the slayer.”
14 Give them, O LORD—what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry and breasts that are dry.
15 “Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal, I hated them there. Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all their leaders are rebellious.
16 Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring.’
17 My God will reject them because they have not obeyed him;

We can see in the Gospel text that the cursing of the fig tree, the driving out of people from the temple (house of God), and the hostility toward Jesus are all related elements that are drawn from Hosea 9. All of these elements and the order in which they are presented in the Gospel called Mark are necessary to make the association between Hosea 9 and the narrative.

Most important, however, is that if we accept the fact that the Markan narrative is actually a literary allusion, then it means this scene is not based on any real event that ever took place. It means that “Jesus” never cursed a fig tree, and “Jesus” never threw anyone out of the temple. None of this actually ever happened; this isn’t a historical event. The scene is merely a literary allusion, yet every other Gospel contains the temple-cleansing scene. If the cleansing of the temple comes from Hosea 9, not from a real-world event, then the fact that it exists in all of the other Gospels means that all of the other Gospels, including John, had to have ultimately gotten the scene from Mark, as we will explore in chapter 3.

This is extremely significant because this is one of the actions attributed to Jesus that is most widely believed to be true, even by secular New Testament scholars. The fact that this scene is based on a literary allusion is not widely recognized even by top theologians and Bible scholars."
- R. G. Price; Deciphering the Gospels; pp 21-23

And this is just barely even scratching the surface. The "den of robbers" comes from Jeremiah's prediction of the destruction of the First Temple.

Trying to claim that this scene is based on real life, as opposed to being a literary invention, is a fool's errand. But this same exact case can be made for literally every single scene in the Gospel of Mark, and ultimately every single scene in every single Gospel, which can be shown to either derive from Mark, from some other Gospel that was derived from Mark, or from some other source, like Josephus, Philo, Paul, etc.

There is literally not a single scene in any Gospel for which the best explanation is, "This must be an account of something that comes from observations of the life of Jesus." Literally nothing. For any given aspect of the Gospel stories there is a better literary explanation than, "must have come from observation."

This figure's life is provably a literary construct.

And the defense of the humanity of Jesus also provably and quite clearly a product of theological arguments, not evidence. There was no point ever in history when the life of Jesus was defended based on evidence, it was always based on theology, i.e. 2nd century Christians stating that Jesus had to have been born and been flesh to show that he was sent by the Creator as opposed to a God Higher than the Creator, etc. Or that had had to have been flesh in order to make his sacrifice meaningful, etc.

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:15 pm
by GakuseiDon
Secret Alias wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:56 pmI don't know but I think it is safe to conclude the Jesus we know never existed. If there was a historical Jesus he was so different from what we know it is as if he didn't exist anyway.
Yes, that's pretty much been my position for years. I frame it as "I think some kind of historical Jesus is the best explanation for the earliest layer of Christian writings -- the letters of Paul and the Gospel of Mark -- that we have, but its so difficult to get any hard facts from them that he may as well not existed."

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:21 pm
by GakuseiDon
rgprice wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 6:48 pmBut GD, hypotheses about "oral tradition", etc. are all unprovable and unsupported.
I haven't said anything about "oral tradition" in this thread AFAICS. That's part of what I call "the newspaper reporter's Jesus" idea, that is, Jesus was so remarkable that even if he hadn't been thought to have been resurrected, people would have written about him anyway. That's not what we see in the earliest texts.
rgprice wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 6:48 pmYet, the evidence that the Gospel of Mark follows the narrative from 1 & 2 Kings and that the scenes are all crafted from scriptural allusions relevant to the destruction of the Temple is concrete, factual and verifiable. The evidence that the Gospel of Mark is written as an introduction to the Pauline letter collection is likewise provable with real material evidence.
Sure. All perfectly consistent with a historical Jesus, just not a Gospel Jesus. And there is no reason why a historical Jesus has to be the same as a Gospel Jesus. A mythicist theory that contrasts its Jesus with a Christian apologist Gospel-like Jesus is based on a strawman.

Out of interest: how do you square the Gospel of Mark, with all its allusions to the Hebrew Scriptures framing many of the stories and sayings with regards to Jesus; with Marcion's Gospel, with stories and sayings by and about Jesus but an apparent rejection of the Hebrew Scriptures? Which one was written first, and what are the implications of that?

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:58 am
by Paul the Uncertain
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:14 pm
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:53 amETA: My own quixotic hobby horse is to aspire to implement the advice a philosopher once gave me: argue against the best possible case that you are wrong, not (or at least not only) against the actual cases that people have made which have failed to convince you. In the real world, and even in much of the academy, people don't often argue that way, so this is not a specific knock on O'Neill.
I have to ask: I'm afraid I don't know your views around the topic of historicity/mythicism, but for you personally, what is the best possible case that you are wrong?
I see the matter as uncertain, and I lean slightly (60-40 or so) to historicism. Thus, I could be wrong in two distinct ways, either insufficiently confident of historicism or else excessively so. I arrive where I am by estimating the bearing of the available evidence as nearly a wash, but not as evidence against.

The critical points in the existing body of evidence, IMO, are Paul's claims to have met "the Lord's" brother, his reference to other brothers of the Lord, and Josephus's reference in the received Antiquities to a certain James as a brother of the Jesus known as Christ. An argument that I was wrongly underestimating historicity would be to compel the interpretation of any one of those three to be a contemporary notice of a close relative or associate of Jesus.

Note, however, that no compelling interpretation of these critical points could in itself transmute them into evidence against historicity. I already believe that the "record" has been somewhat altered, and that on average the alterations probably favor the historicist orthodoxy. Yet another "Look at this shameless interpolation!" claim, even a proven one at a critical juncture, probably wouldn't move the needle much for me. Yes, I am aware that the data set is dodgy (*).

So I am stuck on describing the killer argument against historicity based solely on existing and currently available evidence. As propositions, the two principal competing hypotheses closely approximate one another, so there's not much room to distinguish them on the basis of prior plausibility. I'd still be wrong if I moved to equipoise, and so let me leave it there. If all three of the critical points above were blown away, then that would move me pretty near to 50-50.

-
(*): There is a proverb in law enforcement that when police perjure themselves or fiddle with physical evidence, that is generally NOT in their minds done to frame an innocent defendant, but rather to ensure that someone whom they are fully confident is guilty doesn't go free for lack of admissible evidence. Thus, I am not persuaded that church shennanigans with evidence counts against a historical Jesus, but is grounds for discounting how much some evidence counts for HJ.

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:37 am
by VinnyJH
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:13 am In what sense is the first more or less "complex" than the second?
Familiarity perhaps?

Cognitive dissonance may be a real sociopsychological phenomena, but it's hardly a simple one. I doubt that it is so well understood that a historian can be justified in declaring it to be the most likely explanation for the launch of a religious movement that occurred two thousand years ago. Mainstream historical Jesus scholars will sometimes criticize conservative attempts to harmonize the gospels on the grounds that the resulting story isn't one that is found in any of the sources, but the tale they tell of grief-induced hallucinations isn't found in any of the sources either.

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:16 am
by Secret Alias
argue against the best possible case that you are wrong, not (or at least not only) against the actual cases that people have made which have failed to convince you
I get that but at the same time we have to take stock of the situation. Look at James McGrath. Smart guy. Perceptive. But the feeling I get is that he can't separate his personal faith and personal approach to religion (i.e. Christianity as a "liberal" religion and Jesus as the leader of this "liberal" religion) as if it were history itself. It reminds me of when you're at the strip club and you have a naked lady talking to you about Plato and Nietzsche and you're laughing and she thinks you are so clever. And then you realize that the expectation is that you're paying her for this experience. She's creating what you want to be true at a price. She couldn't care less about the things you are talking about. Beats having some guy from the Third World stick his fingers in her privates when she's bending over trying to arouse him (TBH it is people who are unfamiliar with the acknowledged culture norms of a strip club who do those things). It's not really. The historical Jesus is like that. You want to believe in a society that holds "Judeo-Christian values" that the world isn't an empty cesspool so you create a version of world history that reflects what you "need to be true" based on your social outlook. I prefer looking at the gospel as a product of a cultural milieu and leave the question of the existence of Jesus at the door. That's my approach. But I have never been a Christian. I don't depend on the truth of the gospel or any religion.

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:06 pm
by GakuseiDon
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:58 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:14 pm I have to ask: I'm afraid I don't know your views around the topic of historicity/mythicism, but for you personally, what is the best possible case that you are wrong?
I see the matter as uncertain, and I lean slightly (60-40 or so) to historicism. Thus, I could be wrong in two distinct ways, either insufficiently confident of historicism or else excessively so. I arrive where I am by estimating the bearing of the available evidence as nearly a wash, but not as evidence against.
Yes, that sounds reasonable. I was thinking of your point in terms of your earlier comment on this thread: "I'd be looking for some explicit acknowledgment from O'Neill (or whomever) that the contrary opinion is rationally tenable before declaring victory." But what if one has found there is no rationally tenable position on the contrary side? (I'm not saying that there isn't, only if one has investigated and haven't found one) There is barely enough evidence to find for the historicity side. In Bayesian terms, it's possible to find one position has slightly more evidence than its converse, i.e. "historical" vs "not historical", without requiring a rational contrary opinion to represent the converse.
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:58 amSo I am stuck on describing the killer argument against historicity based solely on existing and currently available evidence. As propositions, the two principal competing hypotheses closely approximate one another, so there's not much room to distinguish them on the basis of prior plausibility. I'd still be wrong if I moved to equipoise, and so let me leave it there. If all three of the critical points above were blown away, then that would move me pretty near to 50-50.
Yes, that sounds reasonable.

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:34 pm
by GakuseiDon
But in Jesus studies? The two leading hypotheses are:

A recently deceased man soon came to be interpreted as a newly revealed god.

A newly revealed god soon came to be interpreted as a recently deceased man.

In what sense is the first more or less "complex" than the second?

To borrow Wolgang Pauli's famous dictum, applying Occam's Razor to decide between these hypotheses is "not even wrong."
Surely we have many more examples of "A recently deceased man soon came to be interpreted as a newly revealed god" than the other option? Many, many more. Certainly some of the early gnostics declared themselves to be gods and they had followers after the claimants' deaths that continued on with that belief.

If we had to build a reference class containing examples of both groups, how many would there be of "a newly revealed god soon came to be interpreted as a recently deceased man"? John Frum perhaps, though opinion is split on his origin (person or spirit). Any others?

Re: Podcast Why Jesus Most Likely Existed, Tim O'Neill

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 3:17 pm
by John2
rgprice wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 6:48 pm
There is literally not a single scene in any Gospel for which the best explanation is, "This must be an account of something that comes from observations of the life of Jesus." Literally nothing. For any given aspect of the Gospel stories there is a better literary explanation than, "must have come from observation."

But Jesus is the one who is presented as believing that the OT "predicted" things about him (or about "the Messiah") that he saw himself as living out. The DSS people did the same thing. They believed that the OT predicted things about them and their leader (the Teacher of Righteousness), and in 1QpHab the Teacher is presented as being the one who taught them the "right" interpretations of the OT:

[... in whose heart] God set [understanding] that he might interpret all the words of His servants the Prophets, through whom He foretold all that would happen to His people and [His land].



I think the Teacher and Jesus were the type of Fourth Philosopher Josephus describes in War 2.13.4:

There was also another body of wicked men gotten together, not so impure in their actions, but more wicked in their intentions, which laid waste the happy state of the city no less than did these murderers. These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretense of Divine inspiration, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government; and these prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, as pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty.



This is what Jesus does in Mark and the Teacher does in the DSS. They both taught a new teaching "under pretense of divine inspiration" in opposition to the people running the show in Judea (i.e., they were "for procuring innovations") and promoted "changes of the government" with their belief in the coming of a singular Messiah figure, which made people "act like madmen." And they believed the OT predicted it all. And like Jesus and the Teacher, the ruling authorities put these people down.

But Felix thought this procedure was to be the beginning of a revolt; so he sent some horsemen and footmen both armed, who destroyed a great number of them.



So to me it looks like Jesus was just another crazy Fourth Philosopher and Mark wrote about him.