Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:31 pmYou might be a little too hung up with timing, as, if the Pauline letters are reliant on the Gospel stories and Acts then we would expect them to support that timeline would we not?

I'm interested in people's views about the timing. I'm wondering about the impact of a Paul with many authors. I guess it would then depend on when those latter "Pauls" added to the earlier ones.

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:36 pm And Don, don't just take my word for it, check it out for yourself.

If anything, you will gain a greater appreciation for the material by investigating the underlying Greek.

Guaranteed.

I have absolutely no knowledge of the Greek or Latin or any other ancient language. I'm reliant on the interpretations of those with those expertise. Unfortunately many of those experts have interpreted the ancient texts with a traditional view of the literature in mind.

John2 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 3:07 pmAnd both leaders interpreted the OT to be about them and the coming of a singular Messiah figure (which was the primary inspiration of the Fourth Philosophy). And I'm inclined to see this type of religious Jew like the ones Josephus describes in War 2.13.4:

There was also another body of wicked men gotten together, not so impure in their actions, but more wicked in their intentions, which laid waste the happy state of the city no less than did these murderers. These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretense of Divine inspiration, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government; and these prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, as pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty.

This is exactly what Jesus does in the gospels. He is presented as teaching "under pretense of divine inspiration" and being a different kind of Messiah figure than Jews were expecting (one "not so impure in ... actions, but wicked in ... intentions") in order to procure "innovations and changes of the government," in the sense that he (like other Fourth Philosophers) taught against the oral Torah and believed that "one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth" (as Josephus puts it).

So a person like Jesus is not at all historically implausible and people like this were a dime a dozen, even according to Jesus (Mk. 13:5-6: “See to it that no one deceives you. Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am He,’ and will deceive many"). And I don't see any big deal in assuming (based on all the evidence we have) that Jesus was just another one of these guys. To say that Jesus existed doesn't make his beliefs true any more than the beliefs of other Fourth Philosophers.

Yes, that's a great point, John2. The passage from Josephus is very close to some views about Jesus. It almost sounds like a parody of the Testimonium Flavianum.

GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:15 am I think we can pin Paul's date for when Jesus lived down a little though? If Paul is treating Isaiah 53 as history, then he'd believe that Jesus lived between the time of David and Isaiah.

That's what I think, yes. After Adam, after Moses, after David. But Paul is not a historian. We don't know when he estimated the lives of these characters, who are also fictional, except maybe for David.

If Paul is treating Isaiah 53 as prophecy, then he'd believe that Jesus lived at some time after Isaiah.

I don't think he would consider Isaiah 53 as prophetic as opposed to other verses in Isaiah.

Isaiah 53 is special since it is written in the past tense. I regularly read studies by scholars who hypothesize that the servant in Isaiah 53 could have been an unknown and historical figure.

I think Paul was thinking the same thing. And that he claimed, like the other apostles, to have deciphered this mystery in the scriptures and that he had a special relationship with this resurrected and celestial Messiah through visions.

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:54 pm One more point for consideration; if "Paul" is primary, why are the letters after the Gospels and Acts in every example that we have? Surely that would be the reverse if Paul came first don't you think?

The early Paul theory ie prior to the gospels, is putting philosophical ideas before history. Yep, one can have ideas that are pure imagination - but while these ideas might occasional bring light upon a problem, science for example and a light bulb moment, they can only do so if there is a problem to be addressed. (ideas about unicorns and dragons are stuff for storytellers not historians) The Pauline writer/s needed something to address their ideas to - not floating abstractions but concrete physical issues. Hence, in the case of the NT, that would be Jewish/Hasmonean history. A history that documented a Roman execution of a King of the Jews. History laid the groundwork - philosophy aims to draw meaning, to understand. Without the gospel story Pauline philosophy has nowhere to go - as I've often said to Doherty - don't put all your eggs in a Pauline basket.

I can understand why mythicists run with Paul before the gospels - it frees them from having to deal with the gospel story and it's links to history. I don't get why a Jesus historicist would want to, or benefit from, such a theory.

If one reads enough into Genesis 3:21 (that of course isn't found within the text at all), then one might infer that it was God who slew "the Lamb".

And Isaiah 61:10 states that:

"I will rejoice greatly in the Lord,
My soul will exult in my God;
For He has clothed me with garments of salvation,
He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels."

If (as per the NT) salvation is from the Christ alone, then the Genesis 3:21 inference as to the actual "nature" of the clothing garments is strengthened.

This passage also makes reference to brides and bridegrooms, which clearly have additional NT Christalogical implications. Ditto for a robe of righteousness. Many NT passages link the Christ to the ultimate "righteousness"...

Sinouhe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:07 am

GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:15 am I think we can pin Paul's date for when Jesus lived down a little though? If Paul is treating Isaiah 53 as history, then he'd believe that Jesus lived between the time of David and Isaiah.

That's what I think, yes. After Adam, after Moses, after David. But Paul is not a historian. We don't know when he estimated the lives of these characters, who are also fictional, except maybe for David...
...
Isaiah 53 is special since it is written in the past tense. I regularly read studies by scholars who hypothesize that the servant in Isaiah 53 was a an unknown and historical figure.

Okay, but David is a long time after the beginning of the world. I think Paul would have known that. What then is "the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" (Rom 16:25)?

Is it Philo (and/or some Gnostic sects) who seemed to infer that before they sinned Adam and Eve were in a garden that existed within the heavenly realm? And that after they sinned (and after being covered in a skin worthy of covering their sin) they were found to be on earth? Would this (again via inference) tie in with a Lamb who was slain before the beginning of the earthly world inhabitance?

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:31 pm
.....if the Pauline letters are reliant on the Gospel stories and Acts then we would expect them to support that timeline would we not?

I don't see why Paul's dying and rising Christ story has to synchronize with the gospel timeline for it's crucifixion story under Pilate and Tiberius. The gospel story is not history. Yes, it's crucifixion story is set in the time of Pilate and Tiberius. However, these 23 years were a time period in which remembrance of past historical events would be appropriate. We do the same today; remembering the lst and 2nd world wars. Remembering the Holocaust, Hiroshima, remembering tragedies and remembering victories. Goodness, how many days do we set aside for remembering events that are deemed important to us.

Judaea was under Roman occupation during the 70th year anniversary, remembrance period, of Hasmonean history. Any public remembrance, of what the Romans did to the last King of the Jews, would generate Roman fears of an uprising/rebellion. There was history to recount, a story to tell about that history - so - an allegory, a political allegory, could be the means to get that history into the public domain without antagonizing Rome.

Pauline philosophy, while giving no date for it's dying and rising Christ figure, is not denying the gospel timeline. That timeline has used allegory and prophetic timelines. These are timelines for remembering history not timelines of history. Pauline philosophy has in effect widened the scope of history - away from Pilate and Tiberius - to a different time. A time in history that documented an event of such historical significance that it became the spark plug for Pauline philosophy.

GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:50 am

Sinouhe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:07 am

GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:15 am I think we can pin Paul's date for when Jesus lived down a little though? If Paul is treating Isaiah 53 as history, then he'd believe that Jesus lived between the time of David and Isaiah.

That's what I think, yes. After Adam, after Moses, after David. But Paul is not a historian. We don't know when he estimated the lives of these characters, who are also fictional, except maybe for David...
...
Isaiah 53 is special since it is written in the past tense. I regularly read studies by scholars who hypothesize that the servant in Isaiah 53 was a an unknown and historical figure.

Okay, but David is a long time after the beginning of the world. I think Paul would have known that. What then is "the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" (Rom 16:25)?

Since he considers Jesus to be pre-existent and a co-agent of creation, he surely considers that his Jesus had some form of existence before his death.

Basically it would look like this :

1/ Pre-existent (a belief that can be found in 2 messianic texts contemporary to Paul, which come from an exaggeration of a verse of Isaiah)
2/ Then delivered up by God to be impaled at an indeterminate time after Adam, Moses and David (Isaiah)
3/ Resurrected and exalted (Isaiah)
4/ The heralds of Isaiah are sent to the Jews and Gentiles to announce that men are saved through the mystery of Christ (Isaiah)
5/ Jesus the servant will accomplish his final mission : the judgment day (Isaiah and Daniel)
6/ The resurrection of the dead (Isaiah and Daniel)

Sinouhe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:07 am

If Paul is treating Isaiah 53 as prophecy, then he'd believe that Jesus lived at some time after Isaiah.

I don't think he would consider Isaiah 53 as prophetic as opposed to other verses in Isaiah.

Isaiah 53 is special since it is written in the past tense.

You may wish to consider whether Isaiah is using the "prophetic perfect tense" (searchable).