Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

mlinssen wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 5:07 am Just an easy question then for you: is there a possibility, in your eyes, that Thomas was the first to develop this kind of "Jesus plus Jacob the Righteous" stories?

There are a few points in GThomas that are currently of great interest to me, and I want to keep all options open. However, at girst glance that seems rather unlikely to me, but not completely impossible.

As you can see, I am interested in characters in GThomas such as Thomas, Simon Peter, Matthew, James, Mary and Salome, all of which can also be found in the Gospel of Mark. But it seems to me that most of these figures have a different character both in GMark and in the Catholic tradition.

Under Markan priority hypothesis, I do not believe that GThomas took Salome from GMark, but that she first developed as a literary figure in other writings (Greek Gospel of the Egyptians ???, Carpocratians ???), and GThomas borrowed her from there. I also suspect that Thomas himself first made a career as a literary figure elsewhere (gnostic Thomas literature ???) and then this figure inspired the author of GThomas to include him as the scribe of the words of his gospel. But that's just a first working hypothesis.

The author seems to be a Jack of all trades and that's interesting.

The orthodox gospels weren't original. Whether or not Thomas is more original is a separate question.

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 10:51 am Whether or not Thomas is more original is a separate question.

It's the question of this thread Stephan

mlinssen wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 12:12 am

12. The Disciples said to IS: we know you will go from the hand of us; who is who that will make be great upward upon us? IS said to them: the place you have come therein, you will go toward Jacob the Righteous; this one has the heaven with the earth come to be because of him.

What do your beloved scholars make of that? Nothing of course, so they either ignore it or create the gossip that it was a common expression - for which they don't offer any evidence, as usual

Stephan, can you tell us something about it? Are heaven and earth for the Tzadik?

Don't know.

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 11:37 am Don't know.

Esse, where do you stand these days on the mrq for Mark hypotheses you once proposed? Just curious.

Lane

Marcion is the earliest. Not because there is any real strong evidence but because the Catholics were inherently dishonest and reactionary.

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 12:42 pm Marcion is the earliest. Not because there is any real strong evidence but because the Catholics were inherently dishonest and reactionary.

I actually meant Mark being mrq.

Re: characters Mary is interesting in that there's a standard pattern - a disciple rebukes her, Jesus defends her and rebukes the disciple
found in NT, G. Thomas, G. Mary, Pistis Sophia, G. Philip
that's an example of Thomas keeping the same character

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 10:50 am

mlinssen wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 5:07 am Just an easy question then for you: is there a possibility, in your eyes, that Thomas was the first to develop this kind of "Jesus plus Jacob the Righteous" stories?

There are a few points in GThomas that are currently of great interest to me, and I want to keep all options open. However, at girst glance that seems rather unlikely to me, but not completely impossible.

As you can see, I am interested in characters in GThomas such as Thomas, Simon Peter, Matthew, James, Mary and Salome, all of which can also be found in the Gospel of Mark. But it seems to me that most of these figures have a different character both in GMark and in the Catholic tradition.

Under Markan priority hypothesis, I do not believe that GThomas took Salome from GMark, but that she first developed as a literary figure in other writings (Greek Gospel of the Egyptians ???, Carpocratians ???), and GThomas borrowed her from there. I also suspect that Thomas himself first made a career as a literary figure elsewhere (gnostic Thomas literature ???) and then this figure inspired the author of GThomas to include him as the scribe of the words of his gospel. But that's just a first working hypothesis.

The author seems to be a Jack of all trades and that's interesting.

In Thomas these names have a symbolic function only, and if they don't act themselves they're Tanakh figures: Adam, Jacob, "Johannes the Immerser".
Simon Petros symbolises the Rock, YHWH, and he provides an obvious answer: your like a righteous angel / messenger - and do note the identical word there to logion 12. Likewise, he makes the make chauvinist remark in logion 114.
Mat'thew is the proverbial Mat' theths, and his answer also is obvious: a wise philosopher.
Mariham is a composite, witness-to-Need/Craftsmanship. Don't know how that would fit as she has no active role herself really.
Salome is peace of course, from the Hebrew, and harkens back to logion 60 where the Samarian is bringing a peace offering to Judea - and I'm still mulling on the scene with regards to bed / brier and table

It's all very hazy really, with little to go on

It all originated in Coptic; do take Coptic Thomas serious and you'll have the best place to depart from - and also know that Mariham is the exact spelling in some MSS