“From Heaven straightway into the synagogue”

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Irish1975
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“From Heaven straightway into the synagogue”

Post by Irish1975 »

I had a new thought about the significance of how the Marcionite Gospel (*Ev) begins.

In the canonical Gospels, Jesus is introduced to the reader in accordance with the expected dignity of a messiah, savior, son of God. As to his birth, Matthew and Luke check the appropriate boxes: (1) born of a virgin, (2) born of the house of David. Likewise John, from his uniquely lofty perspective on the cosmic significance of the Jesus story, follows the pattern of the creation story in Genesis 1:1. “In the beginning…”. Mark invokes OT prophecies.

By contrast, the beginning of *Ev was, for Tertullian and The Church, shockingly mundane:


Beduhn edition:

In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, when Pilate was governing Judea, Jesus came down to Capharnaum, a city in Galilee. And he was teaching them in the synagogue...

Klinghardt edition:
...And he taught them on the Sabbath days.

It is good to consider some of the context of Tertullian's Adversus Marcionem 4.7.4, in which the descent "into the synagogue" is mentioned--

Bene autem quod et deus Marcionis illuminator
vindicatur nationum, quo magis debuerit vel de caelo descendere,
et, si utique, in Pontum potius descendere quam in Galilaeam.
Ceterum et loco et illuminationis opere secundum praedicationem
occurrentibus Christo iam eum prophetatum incipimus agnoscere,
ostendentem in primo ingressu venisse se non ut legem et pro-
phetas dissolveret, sed ut potius adimpleret. Hoc enim Marcion
ut additum erasit. Sed frustra negabit Christum dixisse quod
statim fecit ex parte. Prophetiam enim interim de loco adimplevit.
De caelo statim ad synagogam. Ut dici solet, ad quod venimus;
hoc age, Marcion, aufer etiam illud de evangelio, Non sum mis-
sus nisi ad oves perditas domus Israel, et, Non est auferre panem
filiis et dare eum canibus, ne scilicet Christus Israelis videretur.
Sufficiunt mihi facta pro dictis. Detrahe voces Christi mei, res
loquentur. Ecce venit in synagogam; certe ad oves perditas domus
Israelis. Ecce doctrinae suae panem prioribus offert Israelitis;
certe ut filios praefert. Ecce aliis eum nondum impertit; certe ut
canes praeterit. Quibus autem magis impertisset quam extraneis
creatoris, si ipse inprimis non fuisset creatoris? Et tamen quo-
modo in synagogam potuit admitti tam repentinus, tam ignotus,
cuius nemo adhuc certus de tribu, de populo, de domo, de censu
denique Augusti, quem testem fidelissimum dominicae nativitatis
Romana archiva custodiunt? Meminerant certe, nisi circumcisum
scirent, non admittendum in sancta sanctorum. Sed etsi passim
synagoga adiretur, non tamen ad docendum nisi ab optime
cognito et explorato et probato, iam pridem in hoc ipsum vel
aliunde commendato cum hoc munere. Stupebant autem omnes
ad doctrinam eius. Plane. Quoniam, inquit, in potestate erat
sermo eius, non quoniam adversus legem et prophetas docebat.
It is indeed to the good that Marcion's god too should be cited
as one who gives light to the gentiles, for so there was the greater
need for him to come down from heaven—though, if so, he ought to have
come down into Pontus rather than Galilee. Yet since both that
locality and that function of enlightenment do according to the
prophecy have their bearing upon Christ, we at once begin to
discern that it was he of whom the prophecy was made, when he
makes it clear on his first appearance that he is come not to
destroy the law and the prophets, but rather to fulfil them. For
Marcion has blotted this out as an interpolation. But in vain will
he deny that Christ said in words a thing which he at once partly
accomplished in act. For in the meanwhile he fulfilled the pro-
phecy in respect of place. From heaven straightway into the
synagogue.
As the saying goes, let us get down to it: to your task,
Marcion: remove even this from the gospel, I am not sent but
to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and, It is not <meet> to take away
the children's bread and give it to dogs: for this gives the impression
that Christ belongs to Israel. I have plenty of acts, if you take
away his words. Take away Christ's sayings, and the facts will
speak; See how he enters into the synagogue: surely to the lost
sheep of the house of Israel. See how he offers the bread of his
doctrine to the Israelites first: surely he is giving them preference
as sons. See how as yet he gives others no share of it: surely he is
passing them by, like dogs. Yet on whom would he have been
more ready to bestow it than on strangers to the Creator, if he
himself had not above all else belonged to the Creator? Yet again
how can he have obtained admittance into the synagogue, appear-
ing so suddenly, so unknown, no one as yet having certain know-
ledge of his tribe, of his nation, of his house, or even of Caesar's
census, which the Roman registry still has in keeping, a most
faithful witness to our Lord's nativity? They remembered, surely,
that unless they knew he was circumcised he must not be ad-
mitted into the most holy places. Or again, even if there were un-
limited access to the synagogue, there was no permission to teach,
except for one excellently well known, and tried, and approved,
and already either for this occasion or by commendation from
elsewhere invested with that function. 'But they were all astonished
at his doctrine.' Quite so. Because, it says, his word was with power,
not because his teaching was directed against the law and the
prophets.


If you have read Steven Davies' book Spirit Possession and the Origins of Christianity, you might recall his interpretation of the passage in 1 Cor 15, of the appearance of the resurrected Jesus to 500+ brethren, "some of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep." Why did this seemingly significant event not make it into the Gospel accounts? We'll never know, but Davies observes that people don't generally cluster in a crowd as large as that unless they are doing something together. And if they are doing something together, and also experiencing manifestations of the spirit world, chances are good that the activity engaging them is a religious activity involving prayer and worship. (I thought Ben Smith had a thread about Davies somewhere but I couldn't find it.)

Similarly, the descent of the savior into the synagogue could be interpreted as a religious event--ie, of someone who was suddenly having an experience that represented to him (presumably "him") the descent of the savior to the lower regions of the cosmos (earth, Judaism), where demons hold sway. Immediately the demons are provoked, confront the savior, and are exorcised by him in the sight of all. "And they were amazed at his teaching, because he spoke with authority." All of this sounds like spirit possession behavior.

So the point is that the savior "descends," presumably in a cosmic sense (and so it was understood by later followers of Marcion, says Klinghardt) not just somewhere or anywhere, but "into" a synagogue. Tertullian thinks what is significant about it being a synagogue is that it proves "that Christ belongs to Israel." But from my point of view, which builds on the Davies interpretation of the NT, the significance has to do with the fact that it is a gathering of people engaged in worship, and prone to having spiritual experiences. If Marcion's text is an echo of such an experience, we would then have a more anthropological account of what it actually meant to the earliest Christ worshippers that he appeared among them, was manifested, became flesh, and so forth. Whether the author of this Gospel was himself one such worshipper can only be a question for speculation. But it could have been someone like Marcion himself, writing of a messiah who appears in the land of the Jews, and among the Jews, but who is not welcomed by other Jewish worshippers in the synagogue. Instead, in the story of the incident at Nazareth (Luke, *Ev), the would-be messiah (or prophet) is almost murdered by them.
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Giuseppe
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Re: “From Heaven straightway into the synagogue”

Post by Giuseppe »

Good point. But I continue to think that the descent from heaven is better interpreted as being more similar to the descent of a divine being distinct from other people. Your scenario assumes that the 500 were pious Jews and witnesses of the descent, but in that case there would be no need by Mark of adding only one witness of the first apparition of Jesus: the pious Jew called John the Baptist.

I see rather analogy to the water theology. Capernaum is in Josephus the name of a source that makes fruitful the soil around. Jesus, by descending in Capernaum, is the True Source of Life, amen and so on.

John the Baptist will be added in the incipit in order to reiterate that the water is symbol of the Torah, being imparted to the guy known to be come to destroy the Law and the Prophets.
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mlinssen
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Re: “From Heaven straightway into the synagogue”

Post by mlinssen »

Thanks Bild, lovely. Agree to the detailed core

*Ev was lethal in so many ways, it was the most anti-Judaic piece ever written. IS descends from heaven straight into hell: a synagogue.
Where he dominates everyone and everything by telling them that he is their Messiah

18 “Πνεῦμα (The Spirit) Κυρίου (of the Lord is) ἐπ’ (upon) ἐμέ (Me), Οὗ (of which) εἵνεκεν (because) ἔχρισέν (He has anointed) με (Me) Εὐαγγελίσασθαι (to preach good news) πτωχοῖς (to the poor). Ἀπέσταλκέν (He has sent) με (Me)e κηρῦξαι (to proclaim) αἰχμαλώτοις (to the captives) ἄφεσιν (deliverance), Καὶ (and) τυφλοῖς (to the blind) ἀνάβλεψιν (recovery of sight), Ἀποστεῖλαι (to send forth) τεθραυσμένους (the oppressed) ἐν (in) ἀφέσει (deliverance), 19 Κηρῦξαι (to proclaim) ἐνιαυτὸν (the year) Κυρίου (of the Lord’s) δεκτόν (favor).

And that is his only message: I am your frigging Messiah, and I am here to do whatever the hell I want

*Ev undoubtedly said

κατῆλθενκατέϐη εἰς Καφαρναοὺμ ἐν τῇ συναγωγῇ

All restore κατῆλθεν but they have nothing to go on but the Latin: unfortunately, according to Perseus,
The chief work of Irenaeus, and the only one now extant, is entitled Adversus Haereses, or De Refutatione et Eversione falsae Seientiae, Libri V., the object of which is to refute the Gnostics. The original Greek is lost, with the exception of some fragments preserved by Epiphanius and other writers on heresies; but the work exists in a barbarous, but ancient Latin version, which Dodwell supposes to have been composed towards the end of the 4th century.
HomerOdysseus 10.475 offers us nothing concrete, alas (for the English, https://anastrophe.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin ... 15&getid=1)

Roth has a handy overview of all FF and the relevant fragments, but naturally he skips this past as it would cripple his entire theory - he disqualifies all his work on Marcion by not even mentioning this so very crucial pro-*Ev and anti-Lukan attestation.
Tertullian 4.7.1 has Latin:

7. [1] Anno quintodecimo principatus Tiberiani proponit eum1 de-
scendisse
in civitatem Galilaeae Capharnaum, utique de caelo
creatoris, in quod de suo ante descenderat. Ecquid2 ergo ordinis
fuerat ut prius de suo caelo in creatoris descendens describeretur?
Cur enim non et ista reprehendam quae non implent fidem ordi-
nariae narrationis, deficientis in mendacio semper? Plane semel
dicta sint per quae iam alibi retractavimus an descendens per
creatorem, et quidem adversus ipsum, potuerit ab eo admitti et
inde tramitti in terram aeque ipsius. [2] Nunc autem et reliquum
ordinem descensionis expostulo, tenens descendisse illum. Viderit
enim sicubi appamisse positum est. Apparere subitum ex inopi-
nato sapit conspectum, qui semel impegerit oculos in id quod sine
mora apparuit. Descendisse autem dum fit, videtur et subit3
oculos. De facto etiam ordinem facit, atque ita cogit exigere,
quali habitu, quali suggestu, quonam impetu vel temperamento,
etiam quo in tempore diei noctisve descenderit: praeterea quis
viderit descendentem, quis retulerit, quis asseveraverit rem utique
nec asseveranti facile credendam. [3] Indignum denique ut Romulus
quidem ascensus sui in caelum habuerit Proculum affirmatorem,
Christus vero dei descensus de caelo sui non invenerit annuntia-
torem, quasi non sic et ille ascenderit iisdem mendacii scalis, sicut
et iste descendit. Quid autem illi cum Galilaea, si non erat crea-
toris, cui ista regio destinabatur ingressuro praedicationem?
dicente Esaia, Hoc primum bibito, cito facito, regio Zabulon et
terra Nephthalim, et ceteri qui maritimam et Iordanis, Galilaea
nationum, populus qui sedetis in tenebris, videte lumen magnum:
qui habitatis terram, sedentes in umbra mortis, lumen ortum
est super vos. [4] Bene autem quod et deus Marcionis illuminator
vindicatur nationum, quo magis debuerit vel de caelo descendere,
et, si utique, in Pontum potius descendere quam in Galilaeam.
Ceterum et loco et illuminationis opere secundum praedicationem
occurrentibus Christo iam eum prophetatum incipimus agnoscere,
ostendentem in primo ingressu venisse se non ut legem et pro-
phetas dissolveret, sed ut potius adimpleret. Hoc enim Marcion
ut additum erasit. [5] Sed frustra negabit Christum dixisse quod
statim fecit ex parte. Prophetiam enim interim de loco adimplevit.
De caelo statim ad synagogam. Ut dici solet, ad quod venimus;
hoc age, Marcion, aufer etiam illud de evangelio, Non sum mis-
sus nisi ad oves perditas domus Israel, et, Non est auferre panem
filiis et dare eum canibus, ne scilicet Christus Israelis videretur.

Tertullian doesn't skip a beat - which of course may be caused by the fact that there are none to skip, yet the FF shouldn't be trusted at all in any way whatsoever. Like the Blues Brothers' famous statement: "we can't fail, we're on a mission from God" - which evidently can be taken two ways

There are a few others:

Greek mythology and Roman mythology
  • Adonis is mourned and then recovered by his consort Aphrodite
  • The god Dionysus, to rescue Semele from Hades,[38] and again in his role as patron of the theater
  • Heracles during his 12th labor, on which occasion he also rescued Theseus
  • Heracles, to rescue Alcestis from Hades
  • Orpheus, to rescue Eurydice from Hades
  • Psyche
  • Pelops, son of Tantalus[39]
  • Odysseus
  • Aeneas, to speak to his father in the Aeneid
  • Theseus and Pirithous try to abduct Persephone; they fail, and only Theseus is rescued by Heracles
A few hints are left by the FF:

A. Clement of Alexandria, Protreptikos 2.34.2-5 discusses Prosymnus who guided Dionysus to the entrance of Hades by rowing him to the middle of the lake, as does Arnobius, Against the Gentiles 5.28
B. The twelfth and final labour was the capture of Cerberus, the multi-headed dog that was the guardian of the gates of the Underworld. To prepare for his descent into the Underworld, Heracles went to Eleusis to be initiated in the Eleusinian Mysteries. He entered the Underworld, and Hermes and Athena were his guides
Hermes? That's a messenger, isn't it. Athena? Too bad, Aphrodite is the dove

I could go on, but I've spent an hour already LOL. Highly interesting Bild! And Capernaum turns into a real hell almost immediately, with a "they" wanting to kill our protagonist

My beginning of *Ev is as follows:

31 Καὶ κατέϐη εἰς Καφαρναοὺμ ἐν τῇ συναγωγῇ.
17 καὶ ἐπεδόθη αὐτῷ βιβλίον τοῦ προφήτου Ἠσαΐου, καὶ ἀναπτύξας* τὸ βιβλίον εὗρεν τὸν τόπον οὗ ἦν γεγραμμένον
18 “Πνεῦμα Κυρίου ἐπ’ ἐμέ, Εὐαγγελίσασθαι (???)"
20 Καὶ πάντων οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ ἐν τῇ συναγωγῇ ἦσαν ἀτενίζοντες αὐτῷ.
21 ἤρξατο δὲ λέγειν πρὸς αὐτοὺς ὅτι “Σήμερον πεπλήρωται ἡ γραφὴ αὕτη ἐν τοῖς ὠσὶν ὑμῶν.”
28 Καὶ ἐπλήσθησαν πάντες θυμοῦ ἐν τῇ συναγωγῇ ἀκούοντες ταῦτα,
29 καὶ ἀναστάντες ἐξέβαλον αὐτὸν ἔξω τῆς πόλεως, καὶ ἤγαγον αὐτὸν ἕως ὀφρύος τοῦ ὄρους ἐφ’ οὗ ἡ πόλις ᾠκοδόμητο αὐτῶν, ὥστε κατακρημνίσαι αὐτόν·
30 αὐτὸς δὲ διελθὼν διὰ μέσου αὐτῶν ἐπορεύετο.

And that is how *Ev starts, and it demonstrates the promise that it holds. It is a rage against Judaism from start to end, and it did enrage tens and hundreds of thousands

John to the rescue as usual?

John 2:12 Μετὰ (After) τοῦτο (this) κατέβη (He went down) εἰς (to) Καφαρναοὺμ (Capernaum), αὐτὸς (He) καὶ (and) ἡ (the) μήτηρ (mother) αὐτοῦ (of Him) καὶ (and) οἱ (the) ἀδελφοὶ (brothers) [αὐτοῦ] (of Him) καὶ (and) οἱ (the) μαθηταὶ (disciples) αὐτοῦ (of Him), καὶ (and) ἐκεῖ (there) ἔμειναν (they stayed) οὐ (not) πολλὰς (many) ἡμέρας (days).

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GakuseiDon
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Re: “From Heaven straightway into the synagogue”

Post by GakuseiDon »

Irish1975 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:32 pmIf you have read Steven Davies' book Spirit Possession and the Origins of Christianity, you might recall his interpretation of the passage in 1 Cor 15, of the appearance of the resurrected Jesus to 500+ brethren, "some of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep." Why did this seemingly significant event not make it into the Gospel accounts? We'll never know, but Davies observes that people don't generally cluster in a crowd as large as that unless they are doing something together. And if they are doing something together, and also experiencing manifestations of the spirit world, chances are good that the activity engaging them is a religious activity involving prayer and worship.
Yes, I've argued the same (for what that's worth, which is nothing!). From Paul's letters, he seems to have been part of a travelling faith show, with healings, speaking in tongues and prophecies. I suggest that invoking Jesus and causing appearances would be part of that.
Irish1975 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:32 pmSimilarly, the descent of the savior into the synagogue could be interpreted as a religious event--ie, of someone who was suddenly having an experience that represented to him (presumably "him") the descent of the savior to the lower regions of the cosmos (earth, Judaism), where demons hold sway. Immediately the demons are provoked, confront the savior, and are exorcised by him in the sight of all. "And they were amazed at his teaching, because he spoke with authority." All of this sounds like spirit possession behavior.
I don't see that myself (for what that's worth). One thing about the Gospels is that, if you take away the starting points -- genealogies, Logos prologue, John the Baptist -- they pretty much start with Jesus in a synagogue, either in Capernaum or at least somewhere in Galilee, amazing people.

It seems so modular: start with an origin module, then a John the Baptist module, onto the "Jesus in a synagogue" module. That seems more keeping to a script than anything else. Just my 2 cents!
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Irish1975
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Re: “From Heaven straightway into the synagogue”

Post by Irish1975 »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:10 pm Good point. But I continue to think that the descent from heaven is better interpreted as being more similar to the descent of a divine being distinct from other people.
It’s possible that these divergent interpretations are rooted in divergent perceptions of the real world basis of religious experience. To me “the descent of a divine being distinct from other people” sounds like (a) storytelling, or (b) a dogmatic representation of a supernatural “event.” The scribes and philosophers know that it is just (a); that they are telling stories for mass consumption. But the elders, the bishops, the theologians, the believers, the masses take it as a supernatural revelation. From my perspective, supernaturalism is fantasy, and storytelling is not powerful enough to kick start a religion. The poets had been telling stories of gods coming to earth for many thousands of years; likewise, temple priests represented the gods thus and so. But the Christian revolution did not come about because of a few stupid stories about what someone saw. So I veer towards (c), an anthropological account like that of Davies. The first Christ worshipper or group of Christ worshippers were tapping into a potentiality of the human brain that was, somehow, deeper and wider and more transformative than the typical Jewish or polytheistic practices of the time. They spoke with power.
Your scenario assumes that the 500 were pious Jews and witnesses of the descent,
I don’t see why. It could have happened in Pontus, or anywhere. (The Galilean context of the Gospels is superficial and inessential.) The 500 could have been anyone, but probably some variety of Hellenistic Judaism. As for “witnesses,” I think that’s the wrong terminology to describe a religious event. Today we can watch documentaries about modern cults, in which the participants are caught up in the madness. They are not “witnesses” in the sense of being able to certify a reality external to their own consciousness. All they can witness to is their own experience. (The Paul of 1 Corinthians 15 does no better.)
but in that case there would be no need by Mark of adding only one witness of the first apparition of Jesus: the pious Jew called John the Baptist.
I don’t read Mark that way. His John the Baptist first “sees” the arrival of Jesus the messiah by means of prophetic foretelling (or rather, pseudo-foretelling, since the words are lifted from LXX). John proclaims the messiah to the Judean masses, and to the reader, before Jesus even shows up. All to say, I detect no echo of a real world experience in Mark; it is all storytelling.
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Re: “From Heaven straightway into the synagogue”

Post by Giuseppe »

Irish1975 wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:19 amFrom my perspective, supernaturalism is fantasy, and storytelling is not powerful enough to kick start a religion.
I don't think that Marcion started a new religion, hence his gospel is storytelling.
Irish1975 wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:19 amI don’t read Mark that way.
Celsus read Mark in that way, at least insofar he wrote:

What trustworthy witness saw this apparition, or who heard a voice from heaven adopting you as a son of God? There is no proof except for your word and the evidence which you may produce of one of the men who were punished with you

John the Baptist is probably "one of the men who were punished with you": therefore he works as first witness of the apparition of Jesus. As a chronological marker, if you like.

Because otherwise too much freedom was given to the esoteric interpretation of "the 15° year of Tiberius", since some Christians from Egypt interpreted it as meaning "the 15° day of month of Tybi".
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Re: “From Heaven straightway into the synagogue”

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:29 am Because otherwise too much freedom was given to the esoteric interpretation of "the 15° year of Tiberius", since some Christians from Egypt interpreted it as meaning "the 15° day of month of Tybi".
And that is for good reasons, I think, as I have laid out before
where the Nile floods recede and the crops start to grow throughout the land of Egypt
Start of new growth - how apt can it be? There was no need for any dating in *Ev, given the fact that it was the original gospel. With the retrofitting by Christianity there came a bare necessity to (pre-) date that
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Irish1975
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Re: “From Heaven straightway into the synagogue”

Post by Irish1975 »

mlinssen wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 1:02 am Thanks Bild, lovely. Agree to the detailed core
Who Bild??
*Ev was lethal in so many ways, it was the most anti-Judaic piece ever written. IS descends from heaven straight into hell: a synagogue.
Where he dominates everyone and everything by telling them that he is their Messiah
I think that Marcion hated Judaism, the Torah. It is only canonical Christians who hate Jews per se, both in the NT and in future Christendom. Of course the “NT scholars” would like to make Marcion out to be the real anti-Semite.
*Ev undoubtedly said

κατῆλθενκατέϐη εἰς Καφαρναοὺμ ἐν τῇ συναγωγῇ

All restore κατῆλθεν but they have nothing to go on but the Latin
Why “undoubtedly” κατέϐη (marched down) rather than κατῆλθεν (went down, descended)? Every opinion should be tentative with such poor evidence as we have.
And Capernaum turns into a real hell almost immediately, with a "they" wanting to kill our protagonist
The demons are exposed. Does that make Caparnaum into hell, or a place of liberation? or judgment?
My beginning of *Ev is as follows:

31 Καὶ κατέϐη εἰς Καφαρναοὺμ ἐν τῇ συναγωγῇ.
17 καὶ ἐπεδόθη αὐτῷ βιβλίον τοῦ προφήτου Ἠσαΐου, καὶ ἀναπτύξας* τὸ βιβλίον εὗρεν τὸν τόπον οὗ ἦν γεγραμμένον
18 “Πνεῦμα Κυρίου ἐπ’ ἐμέ, Εὐαγγελίσασθαι (???)"
20 Καὶ πάντων οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ ἐν τῇ συναγωγῇ ἦσαν ἀτενίζοντες αὐτῷ.
21 ἤρξατο δὲ λέγειν πρὸς αὐτοὺς ὅτι “Σήμερον πεπλήρωται ἡ γραφὴ αὕτη ἐν τοῖς ὠσὶν ὑμῶν.”
28 Καὶ ἐπλήσθησαν πάντες θυμοῦ ἐν τῇ συναγωγῇ ἀκούοντες ταῦτα,
29 καὶ ἀναστάντες ἐξέβαλον αὐτὸν ἔξω τῆς πόλεως, καὶ ἤγαγον αὐτὸν ἕως ὀφρύος τοῦ ὄρους ἐφ’ οὗ ἡ πόλις ᾠκοδόμητο αὐτῶν, ὥστε κατακρημνίσαι αὐτόν·
30 αὐτὸς δὲ διελθὼν διὰ μέσου αὐτῶν ἐπορεύετο.

Fulfillment of OT prophecy is a Catholic invention. I don’t see that being in Marcion at all. (Yes, he does use the LXX. But in a fundamentally and characteristically different manner.)
John to the rescue as usual?

John 2:12 Μετὰ (After) τοῦτο (this) κατέβη (He went down) εἰς (to) Καφαρναοὺμ (Capernaum), αὐτὸς (He) καὶ (and) ἡ (the) μήτηρ (mother) αὐτοῦ (of Him) καὶ (and) οἱ (the) ἀδελφοὶ (brothers) [αὐτοῦ] (of Him) καὶ (and) οἱ (the) μαθηταὶ (disciples) αὐτοῦ (of Him), καὶ (and) ἐκεῖ (there) ἔμειναν (they stayed) οὐ (not) πολλὰς (many) ἡμέρας (days).

Ok, so this is why you prefer κατέβη.
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Re: “From Heaven straightway into the synagogue”

Post by Irish1975 »

GakuseiDon wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 4:07 am
Irish1975 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:32 pmSimilarly, the descent of the savior into the synagogue could be interpreted as a religious event--ie, of someone who was suddenly having an experience that represented to him (presumably "him") the descent of the savior to the lower regions of the cosmos (earth, Judaism), where demons hold sway. Immediately the demons are provoked, confront the savior, and are exorcised by him in the sight of all. "And they were amazed at his teaching, because he spoke with authority." All of this sounds like spirit possession behavior.
I don't see that myself (for what that's worth). One thing about the Gospels is that, if you take away the starting points -- genealogies, Logos prologue, John the Baptist -- they pretty much start with Jesus in a synagogue, either in Capernaum or at least somewhere in Galilee, amazing people.

It seems so modular: start with an origin module, then a John the Baptist module, onto the "Jesus in a synagogue" module. That seems more keeping to a script than anything else. Just my 2 cents!
Ok, but why would appearing in a synagogue count as a literary trope or “module.” Does it, for example, allude to some story in the LXX?
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mlinssen
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Re: “From Heaven straightway into the synagogue”

Post by mlinssen »

Irish1975 wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:59 am
mlinssen wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 1:02 am Thanks Bild, lovely. Agree to the detailed core
Who Bild??
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
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