“From Heaven straightway into the synagogue”

[mlinssen]

Thanks Bild, lovely. Agree to the detailed core

Who Bild??

*Ev was lethal in so many ways, it was the most anti-Judaic piece ever written. IS descends from heaven straight into hell: a synagogue.
Where he dominates everyone and everything by telling them that he is their Messiah

I think that Marcion hated Judaism, the Torah. It is only canonical Christians who hate Jews per se, both in the NT and in future Christendom. Of course the “NT scholars” would like to make Marcion out to be the real anti-Semite.

*Ev undoubtedly said

κατῆλθενκατέϐη εἰς Καφαρναοὺμ ἐν τῇ συναγωγῇ

All restore κατῆλθεν but they have nothing to go on but the Latin

Why “undoubtedly” κατέϐη (marched down) rather than κατῆλθεν (went down, descended)? Every opinion should be tentative with such poor evidence as we have.

And Capernaum turns into a real hell almost immediately, with a "they" wanting to kill our protagonist

The demons are exposed. Does that make Caparnaum into hell, or a place of liberation? or judgment?

My beginning of *Ev is as follows:

31 Καὶ κατέϐη εἰς Καφαρναοὺμ ἐν τῇ συναγωγῇ.
17 καὶ ἐπεδόθη αὐτῷ βιβλίον τοῦ προφήτου Ἠσαΐου, καὶ ἀναπτύξας* τὸ βιβλίον εὗρεν τὸν τόπον οὗ ἦν γεγραμμένον
18 “Πνεῦμα Κυρίου ἐπ’ ἐμέ, Εὐαγγελίσασθαι (???)"
20 Καὶ πάντων οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ ἐν τῇ συναγωγῇ ἦσαν ἀτενίζοντες αὐτῷ.
21 ἤρξατο δὲ λέγειν πρὸς αὐτοὺς ὅτι “Σήμερον πεπλήρωται ἡ γραφὴ αὕτη ἐν τοῖς ὠσὶν ὑμῶν.”
28 Καὶ ἐπλήσθησαν πάντες θυμοῦ ἐν τῇ συναγωγῇ ἀκούοντες ταῦτα,
29 καὶ ἀναστάντες ἐξέβαλον αὐτὸν ἔξω τῆς πόλεως, καὶ ἤγαγον αὐτὸν ἕως ὀφρύος τοῦ ὄρους ἐφ’ οὗ ἡ πόλις ᾠκοδόμητο αὐτῶν, ὥστε κατακρημνίσαι αὐτόν·
30 αὐτὸς δὲ διελθὼν διὰ μέσου αὐτῶν ἐπορεύετο.

Fulfillment of OT prophecy is a Catholic invention. I don’t see that being in Marcion at all. (Yes, he does use the LXX. But in a fundamentally and characteristically different manner.)

John to the rescue as usual?

John 2:12 Μετὰ (After) τοῦτο (this) κατέβη (He went down) εἰς (to) Καφαρναοὺμ (Capernaum), αὐτὸς (He) καὶ (and) ἡ (the) μήτηρ (mother) αὐτοῦ (of Him) καὶ (and) οἱ (the) ἀδελφοὶ (brothers) [αὐτοῦ] (of Him) καὶ (and) οἱ (the) μαθηταὶ (disciples) αὐτοῦ (of Him), καὶ (and) ἐκεῖ (there) ἔμειναν (they stayed) οὐ (not) πολλὰς (many) ἡμέρας (days).

Ok, so this is why you prefer κατέβη.

No, I prefer it because of the concept of katabasis in itself: καταβαίνω is to come down from, it focuses on the place of departure yet also the downward movement itself: it has a connotation of coming down from a pedestal

[ETA BEGIN

A katabasis or catabasis (Ancient Greek: κατάβασις, romanized: katábasis, lit. 'descent'; from κατὰ (katà) 'down', and βαίνω (baínō) 'go') is a journey to the underworld.

ETA END]

No indeed, there is no prophecy fulfilment in *Ev, yet Vinzent has got me going with his depiction of John B as failed prophet: there has to be a challenge to him or he can't be demonstrated to have failed.
And, going by my reconstruction above, IS has to do something to relay piss off the synagogue people

It fits right in with the anti-Judaism, and "it fits right out" with the extreme lack of prophecy fulfilment in *Ev indeed - but I think that it would fit. MT, OT and LXX -and Luke 4:18

1 The spirit of the Lord God was upon me, since the Lord anointed me to bring tidings to the humble, He sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to declare freedom for the captives, and for the prisoners to free from captivity.
2 To declare a year of acceptance for the Lord and a day of vengeance for our God, to console all mourners.

1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is on Me, because the LORD has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and freedom to the prisoners
2 to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor and the day of our God’s vengeance, to comfort all who mourn,

1 The spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me; he has sent me to bring good news to the poor, to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind,
2 to summon the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of retribution, to comfort all who mourn

“The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

Highlighted what the Hebrew has and what got changed by the others, and highlighted what the LXX and the NT both have differently on top of that, and highlighted where the LXX disagrees with the NT

The Hebrew Isaiah 61:1 would be a really good laugh, I'm unsure about 61:2. Could this be a prophecy fulfilment in *Ev, perhaps the only one? Perhaps this is where they got the whole idea for rewriting it into Christianity?
I'd like that to be true, but I have nothing to go on, alas. Yet I'll have a peek here and there

[GakuseiDon]

It seems so modular: start with an origin module, then a John the Baptist module, onto the "Jesus in a synagogue" module. That seems more keeping to a script than anything else. Just my 2 cents!

Ok, but why would appearing in a synagogue count as a literary trope or “module.” Does it, for example, allude to some story in the LXX?

Probably but I couldn't say unfortunately. It just seems to me that you can take one module, slide or swap it into another Gospel, and it wouldn't change much. "Jesus teaching in a synagogue in Galilee amazing people with his learning" is one of them. I wonder what kind of a Gospel an AI Chat program would build based on the four Gospels.

[MrMacSon]

... the beginning of *Ev was, for Tertullian and The Church, shockingly mundane:

.
Beduhn edition:
In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, when Pilate was governing Judea, Jesus came down to Capharnaum, a city in Galilee. And he [taught] them in the synagogue ...

Klinghardt edition:
...And he taught them on the Sabbath days.
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It is good to consider some of the context of Tertullian's Adversus Marcionem 4.7.4, in which the descent "into the synagogue" is mentioned--

. It is indeed good that Marcion's god too is cited as one who gives light to the [nations], for there was the greater need for him to come down from heaven, though, if so, he ought to have come down into Pontus rather than Galilee. Yet since both that locality and that function of enlightenment do, according to the prophecy, have their bearing upon Christ, we at once begin to discern that it was he of whom the prophecy was made, when he makes it clear on his first appearance that he is come not to destroy the law and the prophets, but rather to fulfil them. For Marcion has blotted this out as an interpolation. But in vain will he deny that Christ said in words a thing which he at once partly accomplished in act. For in the meanwhile he fulfilled the prophecy in respect of place. From heaven straightway into the synagogue. As the saying goes, let us get down to it: to your task, Marcion: remove even this from the gospel, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and, It is not <meet> to take away the children's bread and give it to dogs: for this gives the impression that Christ belongs to Israel. I have plenty of acts, if you take away his words. Take away Christ's sayings, and the facts will speak. See how he enters into the synagogue: surely to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. See how he offers the bread of his doctrine to the Israelites first: surely he is giving them preference as sons. See how as yet he gives others no share of it: surely he is passing them by, like dogs. Yet on whom would he have been more ready to bestow it than on strangers to the Creator, if he himself had not above all else belonged to the Creator? Yet, again, how can he have obtained admittance into the synagogue, appearing so suddenly, so unknown, no one as yet having certain knowledge of his tribe, of his nation, of his house, or even of [Augusti] Caesar's census, which the Roman registry still has in keeping, a most faithful witness to our Lord's nativity? They remembered, surely, that unless they knew he was circumcised he must not be admitted into the most holy places. Or again, even if there were unlimited access to the synagogue, there was no permission to teach, except for one excellently well known, and tried, and approved, and already either for this occasion or by commendation from elsewhere invested with that function. 'But they were all astonished at his doctrine.' Quite so. Because, it says, his word was with power, not because his teaching was directed against the law and the prophets. .

. Bene autem quod et deus Marcionis illuminator vindicatur nationum, quo magis debuerit vel de caelo descendere, et, si utique, in Pontum potius descendere quam in Galilaeam. Ceterum et loco et illuminationis opere secundum praedicationem occurrentibus Christo iam eum prophetatum incipimus agnoscere, ostendentem in primo ingressu venisse se non ut legem et prophetas dissolveret, sed ut potius adimpleret. Hoc enim Marcion ut additum erasit. Sed frustra negabit Christum dixisse quod statim fecit ex parte. Prophetiam enim interim de loco adimplevit. . De caelo statim ad synagogam. Ut dici solet, ad quod venimus; hoc age, Marcion, aufer etiam illud de evangelio, Non sum missus nisi ad oves perditas domus Israel, et, Non est auferre panem filiis et dare eum canibus, ne scilicet Christus Israelis videretur. Sufficiunt mihi facta pro dictis. Detrahe voces Christi mei, res loquentur. Ecce venit in synagogam; certe ad oves perditas domus Israelis. Ecce doctrinae suae panem prioribus offert Israelitis; certe ut filios praefert. Ecce aliis eum nondum impertit: certe ut canes praeterit. Quibus autem magis impertisset quam extraneis creatoris, si ipse inprimis non fuisset creatoris? Et tamen quomodo in synagogam potuit admitti tam repentinus, tam ignotus, cuius nemo adhuc certus de tribu, de populo, de domo, de censu denique Augusti [Caesar], quem testem fidelissimum dominicae nativitatis Romana archiva custodiunt? Meminerant certe, nisi circumcisum scirent, non admittendum in sancta sanctorum. Sed etsi passim synagoga adiretur, non tamen ad docendum nisi ab optime cognito et explorato et probato, iam pridem in hoc ipsum vel aliunde commendato cum hoc munere. Stupebant autem omnes ad doctrinam eius. Plane. Quoniam, inquit, in potestate erat sermo eius, non quoniam adversus legem et prophetas docebat. .

... the descent of the savior into the synagogue could be interpreted as a religious event -ie. of someone who was suddenly having an experience that represented to him (presumably "him") the descent of the savior to the lower regions of the cosmos (earth, Judaism), where demons hold sway. Immediately the demons are provoked, confront the savior, and are exorcised by him in the sight of all. "And they were amazed at his teaching, because he spoke with authority." All of this sounds like spirit possession behavior.

So the point is that the savior "descends," presumably in a cosmic sense (and so it was understood by later followers of Marcion, says Klinghardt) not just somewhere or anywhere, but "into" a synagogue. Tertullian thinks what is significant about it being a synagogue is that it proves "that Christ belongs to Israel." But from my point of view...the significance has to do with the fact that it is a gathering of people engaged in worship, and prone to having spiritual experiences. If Marcion's text is an echo of such an experience, we would then have a more anthropological account of what it actually meant to the earliest Christ worshippers that he appeared among them, was manifested, became flesh, and so forth. Whether the author of this Gospel was himself one such worshipper can only be a question for speculation. But it could have been someone like Marcion himself, writing of a messiah who appears in the land of the Jews, and among the Jews, but who is not welcomed by other Jewish worshippers in the synagogue. Instead, in the story of the incident at Nazareth (Luke, *Ev), the would-be messiah (or prophet) is almost murdered by them.
.

There's quite a lot of telling and contradictory commentary in Tertullian's Adversus Marcionem 4.7.4.

... he ought to have come down into Pontus rather than Galilee ..[but].. he fulfilled the prophecy in respect of place

... in Pontum potius descendere quam in Galilaeam...Prophetiam enim interim de loco adimplevit

... how can he have obtained admittance into the synagogue, appearing so suddenly, so unknown, no one as yet having certain knowledge of his tribe, of his nation, of his house, or even of [Augusti] Caesar's census ... even if there were unlimited access to the synagogue, there was no permission to teach, except for one excellently well known, and tried, and approved

...Et tamen quomodo in synagogam potuit admitti tam repentinus, tam ignotus, cuius nemo adhuc certus de tribu, de populo, de domo, de censu denique Augusti [Caesar] ... non tamen ad docendum nisi ab optime cognito et explorato et probato

[mlinssen]

There's quite a lot of telling and contradictory commentary in Tertullian's Adversus Marcionem 4.7.4.

... he ought to have come down into Pontus rather than Galilee ..[but].. he fulfilled the prophecy in respect of place

... in Pontum potius descendere quam in Galilaeam...Prophetiam enim interim de loco adimplevit

... how can he have obtained admittance into the synagogue, appearing so suddenly, so unknown, no one as yet having certain knowledge of his tribe, of his nation, of his house, or even of [Augusti] Caesar's census ... even if there were unlimited access to the synagogue, there was no permission to teach, except for one excellently well known, and tried, and approved

...Et tamen quomodo in synagogam potuit admitti tam repentinus, tam ignotus, cuius nemo adhuc certus de tribu, de populo, de domo, de censu denique Augusti [Caesar] ... non tamen ad docendum nisi ab optime cognito et explorato et probato

LOL!
Bull's eye, Mac

What on earth did the Turtle mean with fulfilling prophecy? Did they just shout that all over the place and make m up later as they translated the LXX?
I mean how does this work?

MT Isaiah 8:23, https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.8.23?lang=bi

כִּ֣י לֹ֣א מוּעָף֮ לַאֲשֶׁ֣ר מוּצָ֣ק לָהּ֒ כָּעֵ֣ת הָרִאשׁ֗וֹן הֵקַ֞ל אַ֤רְצָה זְבֻלוּן֙ וְאַ֣רְצָה נַפְתָּלִ֔י וְהָאַחֲר֖וֹן הִכְבִּ֑יד דֶּ֤רֶךְ הַיָּם֙ עֵ֣בֶר הַיַּרְדֵּ֔ן גְּלִ֖יל הַגּוֹיִֽם׃

For if there were to be any break of day for that [land] which is in straits, only the former [king] would have brought abasement to the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali—while the later one would have brought honor to the Way of the Sea, the other side of the Jordan, and Galilee of the Nations

LXX Isaiah 9:1

Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those in distress. In the past He humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future He will honor the Way to the Sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles

We find the usual mistranslations, namely changing past tense into future tense. Γαλιλαία τῶν ἐθνῶν means nations of course, not Gentiles: KJV Translation Count — Total: 558x
The KJV translates Strong's H1471 in the following manner: nation (374x), heathen (143x), Gentiles (30x), people (11x).

But, it's heart warming to see that the Turtle still isn't sure about which prophecies ought to be fulfilled?

[MrMacSon]

Isaiah 8.23—9.6 proclaims that the light of the messianic day will disperse the shadow of death lying over the ''Galilee of the Gentiles/Gentile-Nations".

Isaiah 8.23—9.6 and Ezekiel 47.1-12 depict Galilee 'of the Gentiles' as specifically appointed to receive salvation in the messianic age and as a land which will be one of the first to experience God's deliverance.

Ezekiel 47.1-12 outlines how the prophet beholds a river issuing from under the threshold of the house of the Lord in Jerusalem. It has trees of healing upon its banks. It gives life wherever it courses. It flows towards Galilee (v. 8). Fishers standing upon its banks are to catch a great multitude of fish (v. 10).

Mark 1.17, with its call to Simon and Andrew in Galilee to become fishers of men, seems to be based on Ezekiel 47.10.

[Irish1975]

There's quite a lot of telling and contradictory commentary in Tertullian's Adversus Marcionem 4.7.4.

... he ought to have come down into Pontus rather than Galilee ..[but].. he fulfilled the prophecy in respect of place

... in Pontum potius descendere quam in Galilaeam...Prophetiam enim interim de loco adimplevit

... how can he have obtained admittance into the synagogue, appearing so suddenly, so unknown, no one as yet having certain knowledge of his tribe, of his nation, of his house, or even of [Augusti] Caesar's census ... even if there were unlimited access to the synagogue, there was no permission to teach, except for one excellently well known, and tried, and approved

...Et tamen quomodo in synagogam potuit admitti tam repentinus, tam ignotus, cuius nemo adhuc certus de tribu, de populo, de domo, de censu denique Augusti [Caesar] ... non tamen ad docendum nisi ab optime cognito et explorato et probato

Yes, I was thinking about those remarks too. I like the phrase “telling and contradictory.” Tertullian seems to hint at things that he doesn’t want to make explicit. That was something I came to appreciate from Vinzent’s 2016 book on the “Prefaces,” which I know you have also studied.

A synagogue could be anywhere.