Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 7:55 pm
Also, my impression of historians of the non-biblical-scholarship world is that, compared to the other texts we have, they love this kind of stuff. A lot of it is much less abstract than the more theologically oriented stuff. Especially the texts we have regarding individual acts of persecution, individual martyrs therefore, individual saints therefore, etc. While it's not quite the same as inscriptions and documentary papyri, obviously, as there is a religious aspect, and much of it was transcribed by monks instead of found in situ (which is obviously not irrelevant), a lot of it is a little closer to the mundane world than "Against Heresies" and "Church History" are.

Hugo Lundhaug wrote:the writings of the early Pachomian leaders Pachomius, Theodore, and Horsiesios, the highly prolific Shenoute, or less well-known figures such as Paul of Tamma or Stephen of Thebes.

I was going to start with looking at some of this material, honestly! I'm genuinely surprised to see it being ruled out of bounds.

I was also wanting to revisit the question of archeology, notwithstanding Carrier's remarks here.

Leucius Charinus wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 3:01 am

Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 7:55 pm
Also, my impression of historians of the non-biblical-scholarship world is that, compared to the other texts we have, they love this kind of stuff. A lot of it is much less abstract than the more theologically oriented stuff. Especially the texts we have regarding individual acts of persecution, individual martyrs therefore, individual saints therefore, etc. While it's not quite the same as inscriptions and documentary papyri, obviously, as there is a religious aspect, and much of it was transcribed by monks instead of found in situ (which is obviously not irrelevant), a lot of it is a little closer to the mundane world than "Against Heresies" and "Church History" are.

The above suggests that I may need to explore a further category of evidence that is directly or indirectly relevant to Christian literature in the 4th and subsequent centuries. This is the literature of the monastic communities. This literature cannot be incorporated into the "orthodox" EH because it was not composed by the orthodox "Christian elite" of the 4th century. In another article I recently mentioned (The Coptic Apocalypse of Elijah) a number of these were mentioned.

Hugo Lundhaug wrote:the writings of the early Pachomian leaders Pachomius, Theodore, and Horsiesios, the highly prolific Shenoute, or less well-known figures such as Paul of Tamma or Stephen of Thebes.

So I actually appreciate this point. Thanks.

Leucius Charinus wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 3:01 am

I was going to start with looking at some of this material, honestly! I'm genuinely surprised to see it being ruled out of bounds.

I'm not ruling anything out of bounds. I am open to any ideas and especially if it relates to whatever surviving evidence we may have related to Christian activity in the first four centuries.

I was also wanting to revisit the question of archeology, notwithstanding Carrier's remarks here.

I'm interested in any evidence related to Christianity in the first 4 centuries.

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:41 am Let's suppose banning mountainman's theory is out of the question. What do you with someone who denies the fact that we're on planet earth in the year 2023? I am serious. There WAS Christianity before Constantine. So what do we do about someone who consistently denies reality. I am on the same page about freedom of speech. But his presence is pretty silly if not pretty depressing. Denying reality.

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:41 am Let's suppose banning mountainman's theory is out of the question. What do you with someone who denies the fact that we're on planet earth in the year 2023? I am serious. There WAS Christianity before Constantine. So what do we do about someone who consistently denies reality. I am on the same page about freedom of speech. But his presence is pretty silly if not pretty depressing. Denying reality.

lclapshaw wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:06 am

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:41 am Let's suppose banning mountainman's theory is out of the question. What do you with someone who denies the fact that we're on planet earth in the year 2023? I am serious. There WAS Christianity before Constantine. So what do we do about someone who consistently denies reality. I am on the same page about freedom of speech. But his presence is pretty silly if not pretty depressing. Denying reality.

1: What does freedom from government suppression for voicing ones opinions have to do with any of this?

2: Why do you have such a boner for Pete? Bring facts or screw off. I respect Peter in his willingness to engage Pete with factual material. It may do no good but it's way better than just assaulting Pete's character.

Get a life.

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:41 am There WAS Christianity before Constantine.

mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:34 am There was Chrestianity before Constantine

Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:32 am

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:41 am There WAS Christianity before Constantine.

mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:34 am There was Chrestianity before Constantine

I would like to point out that this reveals a point of difference between members of the forum: what some people will put in the category of "Christianity," others will assign to a different category familiar to many or a new category distinct from what came later (if mlinssen will permit me to refer to his idea of "Chrestianity" as a reference to a different category). Categories can be very difficult to argue about because, just as there is no debating taste, there is no debating of where a category must be drawn, other than perhaps reference to existing practice. For my purposes, I intend to leave the construction of categories to the very last stage, after we have done a full diachronic survey. Only then will we be able to have a shared set of data to be able to broach the difficult and subjective topic of categories.

For this reason, if anybody wants to object that any reference I've mentioned isn't "Christianity," I have neither defined it nor claimed it is.

Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:32 am

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:41 am There WAS Christianity before Constantine.

mlinssen wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:34 am There was Chrestianity before Constantine

I would like to point out that this reveals a point of difference between members of the forum: what some people will put in the category of "Christianity," others will assign to a different category familiar to many or a new category distinct from what came later (if mlinssen will permit me to refer to his idea of "Chrestianity" as a reference to a different category). Categories can be very difficult to argue about because, just as there is no debating taste, there is no debating of where a category must be drawn, other than perhaps reference to existing practice. For my purposes, I intend to leave the construction of categories to the very last stage, after we have done a full diachronic survey. Only then will we be able to have a shared set of data to be able to broach the difficult and subjective topic of categories.

For this reason, if anybody wants to object that any reference I've mentioned isn't "Christianity," I have neither defined it nor claimed it is.