Lay Your Cards on the Table...

[Peter Kirby]

Kunigunde Kreuzerin recently said something about how it would be interesting if people just stated their beliefs about dating and dependence regarding early Christian writings, without getting too caught up in being able to defend them to everyone else. That indeed might be fun, even educational.

I have a lot of stuff on my website, but if I could propose an alternative of sorts here... where I just shoot from the hip instead of worrying about others.

My Favorite Historicist Scenario

Genuine Paul - ca. 50-60 AD
GMark - ca. 66-70 AD
GMatthew - ca. 90-95 AD (uses Mark)
GJohn - ca. 95-100 AD (uses Mark)
GMarcion - ca. 130 AD (uses a synoptic or harmony? there's a thread on this...)
GLuke - ca. 145 AD (uses GMark, GMatthew, GJohn, GMarcion)
Acts - ca. 145 AD (uses Josephus, the letters of Paul, possibly a travelogue)
Most Other NT Letters - ca. 80-110 AD
Pastoral Epistles - ca. 145 AD (like Luke-Acts, reacts to Marcion)
2 Peter - ca. 155 AD
Pseudo-Ignatius - ca. 155 AD
1 Clement - ca. 130 AD
2 Clement - ca. 150 AD
Shepherd of Hermas - ca. 150 AD
Gospel of Thomas - ca. 130 AD

My Favorite Non-Historicist Scenario (differences only)

Non-Genuine Paul - ca. 110-120 AD
GMark - ca. 100 AD
GJohn - ca. 110 AD
GMatthew - ca. 110 AD
Most Other NT Letters - ca. 110-140 AD
Shepherd of Hermas - 1st century
Revelation - 95 AD

So, in my favorite non-historicist scenario, the Gospels came first as Christian literature. The Jesus there was not interpreted metaphorically. Rather, Jesus was a very earthly fiction at the start, at least in this scenario. The story was developed in the aftermath of the First Jewish War in a diaspora setting (Syria perhaps). While there may have been some literature from an earlier group with a theology only, that group did not use the name Jesus, and that literature didn't include the letters of Paul. (Have I worked this out much? No, I haven't. It's nothing really at the present.)

I'll stop here so this doesn't become all about the above...

Any other takers?

PS - Don't press too hard on the numbers above. I wrote this in less than 10 minutes.

[Stephan Huller]

I think the argument that the gospels 'must have been written' in the second century because we have no information about the late first century for the movement is a stupid argument. It doesn't mean it is wrong. But the same thing happens in Judaism. Does that mean Judaism didn't exist c. 70 - 100 CE?

[Peter Kirby]

I think the argument that the gospels 'must have been written' in the second century because we have no information about the late first century for the movement is a stupid argument. It doesn't mean it is wrong. But the same thing happens in Judaism. Does that mean Judaism didn't exist c. 70 - 100 CE?

Huh?

It's okay if you don't want to play the game... but I haven't seen that argument in this thread.

Actually this thread is the "no argument" thread. You're not supposed to have an argument. Get it?

[MrMacSon]

Some components of 'the Paulines' 50 BC/BCE to 100 AD/CE

Various gnostic 'gospels' ~130 BC/BCE onwards
(along with various other narratives such as the Joseph and Aseneth story)

proto-Synoptics ~ 20 AD/CE onwards

[Stephan Huller]

I don't have a definitive opinion. My assumption is that the gospel was written around the time of the destruction of the Jerusalem temple, likely after in some finalized form that is familiar enough that we might mistake it as one of the canonical gospels.

[Leucius Charinus]

..... beliefs about dating and dependence regarding early Christian writings.....

Hi Peter,

The dating provided by everyone else will invariably represent the terminus post quem - the earliest possible dating - for a theory of Christian origins, and will generally ignore the "Non Canonical Books" (probably due to a perceived lack of importance). The following dating reflects the terminus ante quem - the latest possible dating - or "the worst case scenario" for a theory of Christian origins which includes the "Non Canonical Books".

"Early Christian Writings by category" ...... terminus ante quem Chronology of Authorship

LXX ................................................. 3rd century (Origen; Jewish Platonist; Hexapla)
NT Canonical Books ............................. 4th century (312-324 CE): Constantine's Bible
NT & (most) OT Non Canonical Books ........ 4th century (325-336 CE): Academic Greek Literary reaction to Constantine's Bible


Be well



LC

[maryhelena]

My approach revolves around the development of the Jesus story. Specific dating is not necessary for this approach - however, different time frames are. As of now.... this is how I lay out my cards....

Pre 70 c.e.

Toledot Yeshu.
Slavonic Josephus (i.e. the wonder-doer narrative plus the birth narrative that is now contained within this text - these stories being pre Slavonic Josephus/War.)
Philo: Allegorical Interpretation, II
The Epistle to the Hebrews
Gospel of John

Post 70 c.e.

Gospel of Matthew 1
Acts of Pilate
Gospel of Mark
Gospel of Matthew 2 (Archelaus added making Jesus a young child at that time...)

Post Antiquities 93/94 c.e.

ur-Luke (without birth narrative i.e. from the 15th year of Tiberius)
The Infancy Gospel of James. (Protevangelium of James)
Gospel of Luke
==========================

The epistles of Paul? A pre 70s 'Paul' and a later post 93/94 c.e., figure of 'Paul'.

Acts = post 93/94 c.e.

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi Peter,

Good question:

Revelation: 69 CE
Ur-Paul: Hebrews and other Jewish sections - 50-60 CE. First Revision and Pastorals - 140-150 CE, Second Revision - 180-190 CE. Certain phrases like "James, brother of the Lord," inserted post 200 CE
GMark - ca. 150-170
GMatthew - ca. 170-180 (uses Mark)
GJohn - ca. 160-170
GMarcion - ca. 150-170 AD
GLuke - ca. Early Summer of 206 CE (uses GMark, GMatthew, GJohn, GMarcion)
Acts - ca. 200 CE (uses Josephus, the letters of Paul, possibly a travelogue)
Most Other NT Letters - ca. 180 CE
2 Peter - 180 CE
Pseudo-Ignatius - ca. 150
1 Clement - ca. 150 CE
2 Clement - ca. 150 CE
Shepherd of Hermas - ca. 150 CE
Gospel of Thomas - ca. 150 CE
Gospel of Mary - ca. 160
Justin Martyr's works - 180 CE
Celsus - 180 CE
Irenaeus - "Against Heresies" 205 CE, "Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching"
TF and John the Baptist Insertion into Josephus 315-325 CE.

Rule of Thumb. Books are rarely talked about or quoted before they come out. Books are generally talked about and quoted soon after they are written and become popular. Ex: Mentions of "Harry Potter" on the internet before 1997 - zero. Mentions of Harry Potter after 1997 - millions. "Harry Potter and the Philosopher Stone" was published on June 30, 1997.
While one could imagine that the gospels were all written in the first Century and kept under a rock for 100 years, I do not think it is probable.


Warmly,

Jay Raskin

[Charles Wilson]

Before the Destruction of the Temple:

Story of Peter and the Priest: Probably no earlier than than the 20's, no later than the Destruction of the Temple, since this is the Story that gets stolen and dismembered by the Romans.
The Hasmoneans: Chronology based on what was given to Josephus by Nicholas of Damascus et al. The Citadels are given to survivors and followers of Jannaeus by Salome. There should be a literary beginning here.
Alexander Jannaeus: See: The Hasmoneans. He is the King.
The Priesthood: Through 70. There is an Organized Mission of the Priesthood and their movements and meanings are hidden in Josephus, quite intentionally.
Immer (and Bilgah): The Service MIshmarot Groups: The Math says that there was a Temple Slaughter at Passover of 4 BCE. After the Murder, the Group Immer, at the Call of Jairus, begins preparing for Passover at 9 CE. The Symbolism is very narrowly defined. Bilgah - not worthy to untie the Thong of the sandal of the later creation, "Jesus", is the Group that rotates into Jerusalem the week before Immer. Bilgah has been penalized by the other Mishmarot Groups, having its "Ring" (thong) nailed down on the floor of the Temple. Therefore, "Bilgah" <=> "John". Immer is the "Lamb" or the "Lamb of God" in an elegant written word pun.
***
Post Destruction of the Temple:

70: The valuables are stolen by the Romans and the Scrolls are taken to the palace.
The Signs Gospel: Post 70 since the subject is the Divinity of Titus. Mebbe 75? Note: You must strip out the Janneaus material from the Titus material for the Signs Gospel to make sense.
Through 95/96-ish: The beginnings of the NT, first written in praise of Titus. The beginning of the Rewrite, initiated by Domitian.
Death of Domitian: 96. Domitian is given Damnatio Memoriae and is therefore the enigmatic "Holy Spirit" who replaces Titus. The "Baptism of John" is replaced by the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit".

Therefore: Construction of the NT and the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit begins AFTER the death of Domitian. Let's guess no earlier than 100, no later than 125 and the "John Fragment".
Mark: Around 110. I'm no Greekie. The Aramaic and other portions are laid out. Jay has a WONDERFUL clue that relates John and Mark
Matthew: Mark + about 6 months if I may be allowed a little Irony.
Luke: Luke is an amalgamation by admission. Marcion does not have this admission which may imply that Marcion came first and the first verses of Luke were boilerplate. When Luke?: Whenever.

Post Gospels:

Acts: Post 70 and given that the Holy Spirit is a Big Player in Acts, Post 100 - 109, since Acts uses Tacitus, Histories, Book 4 at its very base . It's Very Simple: "Paul" is based on a character named "Mucianus". The "Vision on the Road to Damascus" is Titus meeting with Mucianus and Mucianus committing to Vespasian. The Star Struck 12th Legion is a Big Player in Acts, as is the Tenth Legion, dba Caesar's "Favorite".

Revelation: Jay mentions Revelation,above, and it is post Domitian (The Rainbow Racetrack, Domitan killing flies "With many eyes" with his stylus...). In Chapter 5-ish, we find a Gold Mine of material concerning the Hasmoneans and Jannaeus and Salome. Paralleled in Mark 13.

After this, lotsa' Hacks and Sycophants, writing tons of verbiage that is altered, rejected and rewritten until the Orthodoxy of Rome prevails. In spite of it all, things such as Mark's Chiastic Structures and the Mishmarot Stories of Jannaeus, Salome and the Hasmoneans are not completely eliminated.

CW

[Clive]

Early Summer of 206 CE

Nope, it was definitely 17 July 206!