Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Posted: **Sun Apr 16, 2023 9:11 pm**

GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2023 5:03 pmbut if Paul was thought to have written in the 50 CEs (even if the letters were actually written in the Second Century CE), then Pilate would have been a natural to be included as one of the rulers within the story.

indeed the traditional dating of Paul is only a problem for the Amalgam Theory, since the theory assume post-70 Origins.

Posted: **Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:17 am**

MrMacSon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:01 pm
ABuddhist wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2023 10:33 am
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2023 6:26 am
I have read enough to know that there are only three mythicist theories:

A) Amalgam Theory: Jesus is an amalgam of many figures mentioned in Josephus.

B) Outer Space Theory: Jesus was a mythical figure crucified in heaven, later transposed on the earth.

C) Talmudic Theory: the Talmud is simply right in placing Jesus under Janneus.
What about a 4th model, of a Jesus doing his deeds upon the Earth in a mythical past, akin to Krishna, Heracles, and Abraham [?]

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2023 10:39 am it is the Talmudic Theory. Since there is not a real difference between a real remote past and a mythical remote past. Cfr. the case of the Teacher of Righteousness: who can bet his own home on the thesis that he existed beyond any reasonable doubt? ... Ellegard was not sure about his historicity.
Perhaps rename C) a/the "Mythical Past-Jesus Theory" ??

I'm keen on clearer terminology.

So, I'm not keen on B) "Outer Space Theory". So, how about a/the "[Initial] Celestial Jesus Theory"?

whereby Jesus was initially a mythical, celestial figure:
[perhaps crucified in heaven] and [eventually] transposed [and placed] on the earth [as a human or humanoid entity]

So

But a curious statistical inquiry is worthy of mention. The large majority of mythicists of the past [were] followers of the ["Mythical Past-Jesus Theory"] especially among theosophists. The more intellectual among them were (and are) followers of the [Initial Celestial Jesus] Theory.

This would fit with how Amitabha Buddha is described as a celestial Buddha.

But if Jesus were to be set in a mythical past, then he would notr have been during Alexander Jannaeus's reign, which is firmly historical. So maybe a better term would be time-shifted Jesus. This would also allow Lena Einhorn's model to be incorporated.

Posted: **Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:43 am**

ABuddhist wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:17 am But if Jesus were to be set in a mythical past, then he would notr have been during Alexander Jannaeus's reign, which is firmly historical.

the Teacher of Righteousness is considered a mythical figure (or at least a figure of dubious historicity) even if he is a contemporary of Janneus.

Lena Einhorn's view is an example of the Amalgam Theory.

Posted: **Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:51 am**

Giuseppe wrote, above, in part:
"the Teacher of Righteousness is considered a mythical figure (or at least a figure of dubious historicity) even if he is a contemporary of Janneus."

imo, that Teacher is considered, by most scholars, to haven been an historical person, though a minority of scholars (e.g., Timothy Lim) consider that it was a title or office held by more than one historical person.

I think that the Teacher was Judah the Essene, who was a contemporary of Alexander Jannaeus.

Posted: **Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:56 am**

I quote Earl Doherty:

The Teacher himself is a shadowy figure, and we know very little about him from the few references to him which the Scrolls contain. It is even possible that he too is a later construct by those first century Essenes, to explain and cast their origins in terms of a seminal man.

http://jesuspuzzle.com/jesuspuzzle/BkrvEll.htm

Posted: **Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:00 am**

@aBuddhist

Ellegard himself concedes that the difference between a real remote past and a mythical remote past is very subtle:

Yet though I maintain that Paul and others looked upon Jesus as an historical figure, but one long since dead, I do not believe that they actually modeled their own Jesus figure on that historical person. Instead, they built on the Old Testament passages that the Church of God, inspired by their founder, the Teacher of Righteousness, interpreted as Messianic prophecies. It was probably only at a later stage that Paul realized that what was known (or surmised) about the Teacher showed remarkable parallels with the Messiah figure construed out of Old Testament passages that their Church interpreted allegorically as referring to the Messiah.

(my bold)
http://jesuspuzzle.com/jesuspuzzle/BkrvEll.htm

Posted: **Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:09 am**

Giuseppe, above, quoted Earl Doherty on the Teacher of Righteousness.
In my post, above, I noted the view of a majority of Dead Sea Scroll scholars.

Posted: **Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:13 am**

MrMacSon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:01 pm
ABuddhist wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2023 10:33 am
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2023 6:26 am
I have read enough to know that there are only three mythicist theories:

A) Amalgam Theory: Jesus is an amalgam of many figures mentioned in Josephus.

B) Outer Space Theory: Jesus was a mythical figure crucified in heaven, later transposed on the earth.

C) Talmudic Theory: the Talmud is simply right in placing Jesus under Janneus.
What about a 4th model, of a Jesus doing his deeds upon the Earth in a mythical past, akin to Krishna, Heracles, and Abraham [?]

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2023 10:39 am it is the Talmudic Theory. Since there is not a real difference between a real remote past and a mythical remote past. Cfr. the case of the Teacher of Righteousness: who can bet his own home on the thesis that he existed beyond any reasonable doubt? ... Ellegard was not sure about his historicity.
Perhaps rename C) a/the "Mythical Past-Jesus Theory" ??

I'm keen on clearer terminology.

So, I'm not keen on B) "Outer Space Theory". So, how about a/the "[Initial] Celestial Jesus Theory"?

whereby Jesus was initially a mythical, celestial figure:
[perhaps crucified in heaven] and [eventually] transposed [and placed] on the earth [as a human or humanoid entity]

So

But a curious statistical inquiry is worthy of mention. The large majority of mythicists of the past [were] followers of the ["Mythical Past-Jesus Theory"] especially among theosophists. The more intellectual among them were (and are) followers of the [Initial Celestial Jesus] Theory.

ABuddhist wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:17 am

This would fit with how Amitabha Buddha is described as a celestial Buddha.

But if Jesus were to be set in a mythical past, then he would not have been during Alexander Jannaeus's reign,¹ which is firmly historical. So maybe a better term would be time-shifted Jesus. This would also allow Lena Einhorn's model to be incorporated.
.

I'm not sure a 'Yeshu[a]' 'set' in the distant past has to be 'the Gospel Jesus' or even the main forerunner to the Gospel Jesus. There could be / have been a few distant past 'Yeshu[a]s'

Lena Einhorn's time-shift was about a few specific characters in Josephus' accounts, including 'the Egyptian' as Jesus, shifted from the 40s-50s/60s back to the 20s-30s.

Posted: **Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:29 am**

MrMacSon wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:13 am
MrMacSon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:01 pm
ABuddhist wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2023 10:33 am
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2023 6:26 am
I have read enough to know that there are only three mythicist theories:

A) Amalgam Theory: Jesus is an amalgam of many figures mentioned in Josephus.

B) Outer Space Theory: Jesus was a mythical figure crucified in heaven, later transposed on the earth.

C) Talmudic Theory: the Talmud is simply right in placing Jesus under Janneus.
What about a 4th model, of a Jesus doing his deeds upon the Earth in a mythical past, akin to Krishna, Heracles, and Abraham [?]

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2023 10:39 am it is the Talmudic Theory. Since there is not a real difference between a real remote past and a mythical remote past. Cfr. the case of the Teacher of Righteousness: who can bet his own home on the thesis that he existed beyond any reasonable doubt? ... Ellegard was not sure about his historicity.
Perhaps rename C) a/the "Mythical Past-Jesus Theory" ??

I'm keen on clearer terminology.

So, I'm not keen on B) "Outer Space Theory". So, how about a/the "[Initial] Celestial Jesus Theory"?

whereby Jesus was initially a mythical, celestial figure:
[perhaps crucified in heaven] and [eventually] transposed [and placed] on the earth [as a human or humanoid entity]

So

But a curious statistical inquiry is worthy of mention. The large majority of mythicists of the past [were] followers of the ["Mythical Past-Jesus Theory"] especially among theosophists. The more intellectual among them were (and are) followers of the [Initial Celestial Jesus] Theory.

ABuddhist wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:17 am

This would fit with how Amitabha Buddha is described as a celestial Buddha.

But if Jesus were to be set in a mythical past, then he would not have been during Alexander Jannaeus's reign,¹ which is firmly historical. So maybe a better term would be time-shifted Jesus. This would also allow Lena Einhorn's model to be incorporated.
.

I'm not sure a 'Yeshu[a]' 'set' in the distant past has to be 'the Gospel Jesus' or even the main forerunner to the Gospel Jesus. There could be / have been a few distant past 'Yeshu[a]s'

Lena Einhorn's time-shift was about a few specific characters in Josephus' accounts, including 'the Egyptian' as Jesus, shifted from the 40s-50s/60s back to the 20s-30s.

To clarify, Amitabha Buddha is not set in the mythical past, although the vows which he undertook in order to become a Buddha are set in such a mythical past, albeit upon another world before this universe was formed. Rather, Amitabha Buddha is taught to be a Buddha still active and helping being upon the world Sukhvati, which is very blissful.

There are other Buddhas who are set within this world's mythical past, such as Kassapa Buddha.

Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Three mythicist theories, only One Problem: Pilate

Re: Three mythicist theories, only One Problem: Pilate

Re: Three mythicist theories, only One Problem: Pilate

Re: Three mythicist theories, only One Problem: Pilate

Re: Three mythicist theories, only One Problem: Pilate

Re: Three mythicist theories, only One Problem: Pilate

Re: Three mythicist theories, only One Problem: Pilate

Re: Three mythicist theories, only One Problem: Pilate

Re: Three mythicist theories, only One Problem: Pilate

Re: Three mythicist theories, only One Problem: Pilate