Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:31 pm
I agree. But I think Doherty on occasion disagrees, especially when he talks about Middle Platonism. There is at least one text that makes me wonder whether Doherty might have a point here. Revelation.
Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2017 7:11 pm
Revelation 13.8
And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 5.6-14:
6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sing a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” 11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” 13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
The Lamb here seems to have been slain in some kind of eternal way, visible in heaven.
The only other "myth" that I'm aware of that sounds similar to what Carrier says about Jesus being crucified in the lunar realm would be that of the Egyptian sun god who leaves the heavens/sky, enters the underworld, takes on flesh, becomes a corpse, is reborn/resurrected and transfigured, and then rises out of the underworld back to the heavens/sky. The Egyptians believed that the people in the underworld had physical bodies made of flesh. By taking on flesh, becoming a corpse, and resurrecting, the sun god becomes a model to the Egyptians as someone who conquers death. Just like Osiris, his conquering of death gives Egyptians hope that they will also be able to conquer death. The similarities between the stories of the sun god, Osiris, and Jesus are undeniable to me even though there are differences. What's interesting is that Plutarch associates the moon and the realm just below the moon with the underworld/Hades. So if you were to look at this story of the sun god from a Middle Platonic perspective, then his death and resurrection/rebirth could be seen as happening in the lunar realm. Another interesting thing is that Paul seems to think that at the resurrection of Jesus the cosmos began a process of recreation. Every night when the sun god entered the underworld it was seen as a deconstruction of the cosmos and the morning sunrise/resurrection/rebirth out of the underworld was a recreation. This whole process of the sun god's journey through the underworld is constantly referred to as a "mystery" in Egyptian texts. While the sun god is in the underworld the dead are judged before Osiris and if they don't pass judgement they face punishment and then are annihilated which was considered to be a "second death". Some scholars have actually pointed out the possible influence of the myth of Isis and Horus on the woman in Revelation 12 who is being pursued by the dragon just as Isis is being pursued by Set. In the underworld, the serpent Apep/Apophis tries to prevent the rebirth of the sun god out of the womb of the sky goddess. So there's some similarities with Revelation also. The death and resurrection of Osiris was also associated with the phases of the moon.
Handbook of Egyptian Mythology (ABC-CLIO, 2002), Geraldine Pinch:
The mutilation and dismemberment of Osiris could also be linked to the lunar calendar (see under “Moon” in “Deities, Themes, and Concepts”). The full moon could represent both the complete body of Osiris and the complete eye of his son, Horus. Each month as the moon waned, the body of Osiris and the Eye of Horus were divided. Evil seemed to triumph, until the waxing of the moon “completed” these two symbols of beneficent power again. Periodic eclipses of the moon were explained by myths such as that of Seth taking the form of a black boar to swallow the eye of Horus and being forced to expel it again. Regular astronomical events such as the appearance of the morning star or the heliacal rising of Sirius also feature in Egyptian myth (see “Stars and Planets” in “Deities, Themes, and Concepts”), but by far the most significant heavenly phenomenon was the daily rising and setting of the sun.
The apparent movement of the sun across the sky was seen both as a life cycle and as a journey. The daily life cycle of the sun was more an extended metaphor than a narrative. The sun was said to be born each morning from the womb of the sky goddess, Nut. At dawn the sun was a child—a daily repetition of the emergence of the sun child during the First Time [beginning of creation]. At noon, the sun reached the peak of his strength and could be portrayed as a triumphant falcon. By evening he was an old man, virtually the only god to be shown as old. The common identification of the evening sun as Atum linked it with the myth of the creator growing weary and letting the world sink back into the nun. Sunset was equivalent to death, and the sun’s flesh and soul passed into the underworld. After moving through the underworld reviving its inhabitants with his light, the sun would be reborn. Each sunrise was a new beginning for the cosmos.
The Search for God in Ancient Egypt (Cornell University Press, 2001), Jan Assmann:
The nightly journey of the sun as a descensus ad inferos brought the sun god into constellations with the inhabitants of the netherworld, the transfigured dead. His light, and in particular his speech, awoke them from the sleep of death and allowed them to participate in the life-giving order that emanated from his course. But in this, the god himself experienced the form of existence of the transfigured dead and set an example for them by overcoming death. For in the depths of the night and the netherworld - and this was the most mysterious constellation of all - he united with Osiris, the son with the deceased father, the ba with the corpse, and from this union he received the strength for a fresh life cycle... The icon of sunset represents the cosmic process in such a way that it can be the archetype of the fate of the dead. It invests actions and events in the divine realm with a formulation that makes them comprehensible on the level of the mortuary cult. The same is true of the morning icon, which symbolizes the overcoming of death and the renewal of life, rebirth from the womb of the sky goddess. Connected with it are Isis and Nephthys, the divine mourning women, whose laments and transfigurations raise the dead into the morning constellation of the course of the sun... The icons give the course of the sun a form that makes it possible to relate it to the world of humankind, for they bring to light a meaning in the sun's course that is common to both levels, the cosmic level and that of the fate of the dead... Just as the icons of evening and morning sketch out the archetype of a successful outcome for individual's hopes for immortality, so the midday icon of overcoming the enemy lends archetypal form above all to society and its interest in health, life, and well-being... The course of the sun was at the same time the pulse-beat of the world, which filled the cosmos with life force by means of the cyclic defeat of the enemy and of death. The constellation that lent the clarity of an icon to this idea was that of Re and Osiris. In the depths of the night, they unite as father and son, as the day at dusk and dawn, and as the two aspects of plenitude of cosmic time that the Egyptians distinguished as neheh and djet.
The Ancient Egyptian Books of the Earth (ISD LLC, 2012), Joshua Aaron Roberson:
The right-hand group includes a burial mound, within which rests a large weeping eye and four “flesh” signs... A bearded mummy lies atop the mound, embraced by the “arms of Geb” (a.wj Gb). The mummy is identified as Re [the sun god] in the version of Khonsumes, and as “He Who Weeps” (sntw) in that of Ramesses VI. A text on the Khonsumes papyrus explains how the god goes to rest in the arms of Geb [the earth god], stating “the two arms guard the corpse of this god, which has not emerged from them.” A pair of praising figures, male and female, flank either side of the burial mound. The figures’ captions (“He/she of the wailing cry”; “He/she of lament”) identify them as mourners on behalf of the recumbent mummy, whom they attend... The figures again represent the revivification of the sun through immersion in chaos: the night barque descends from the preceding underworld pathway, down through the original mound of earth, which has emerged from the primordial ocean. The sun god then leaves the ordered cosmos for a brief sojourn in the unknowable, watery expanse of Nun. The papyrus of Djedkhonsuiusankh identifies the solar deity (equated with the deceased) at this critical juncture as a “possessor of mystery.”... It seems likely that the night barque must physically transform into the day barque while inside of Nun [primordial waters], just as the elderly sun god transforms into his own, rejuvenated form... the Great God, formerly a “possessor of mystery,” now acquires the epithet, “possessor of life.” The sun’s disappearance into the primordial waters may recall eschatological themes alluded to in the Book of the Dead. Such texts serve as a reminder of the delicate balance struck between ordered existence and dissolution into chaos—a balance predicated upon the continued rejuvenation of the sun within the same chaotic waters that will ultimately reabsorb the world... This same region is associated also with the primal waters of Nun, which the sun god must enter in order to be reborn... In this diagram, the large mummiform figure at the center represents the union of Re and Osiris, which occurs at the midpoint of the solar journey, resulting in the formation of the giant god Re-Osiris, who stands in the eastern horizon, with his head in the heavens and his feet in the depths of the Underworld... The central mummified figure undoubtedly represented the mysterious union of Re and Osiris. This event is the very apotheosis of resurrection and the mythological model on which the king and, later, private individuals hung their hope for rebirth.
The Ancient Egyptian Netherworld Books (SBL Press, 2018) John Coleman Darnell, Colleen Manassa Darnell:
Several scenes within the Netherworld Books describe the destruction and accompanying re-creation of time. The interaction of space and time in the Netherworld Books ultimately leads to the re-creation of the cosmos each night. As the sun descends into the depth of the Nun-waters and visits his Osirian corpse, time itself is renewed, enabling the resurrection of the dead king and indeed all blessed dead... The punishment of enemies becomes one of the chief themes of Hour 11 of the Book of the Hidden Chamber, and an appropriate landscape of fiery pits appears in the lowest register... This corresponds to the concept of creation from de(con)struction that finds such emphasis in the book of Caverns- the "atomizing" of the self results in a recreation of the blessed dead but leaves the several portions of the dismembered damned to cook in the fires of the Netherworldy deities... One of the few consistent topographical themes of the Netherworld Books does appear within Hour 2 of the Book of Gates, as it does throughout the Book of Caverns: the punishment of the damned is executed in the lowest register of the hour, in the bowels of each division of the night... The Lake of Fire in Hour 3 of the Book of Gates (Scene 10) has an interesting dual nature: it provides refreshing water for the blessed dead, but a blasting flame against the damned... Following Hour 5 is an interior space, the Judgement Hall of Osiris... In the final three hours of the Book of Gates, Re approaches the eastern horizon of heaven as he repeatedly battles the chaos serpent Apep.
The Mind of Egypt: History and Meaning in the Time of the Pharaohs, Jan Assmann:
The spread of the religion of Osiris and, inextricably bound up with it, the emergence of a universal Judgment of the Dead constituted the most significant new paradigm in the Egyptian history of meaning... Every dead person hoped to find similar vindication after death and to follow Osiris into the realm of immortality... The Egyptian concept of the verdict passed on the dead bears some comparison to the early Christian notion of divine judgment as set out in chapter 25 of the Gospel According to St. Matthew. Instead of the Egyptian tribunal, the gospel offers the Last Judgment, instead of individual lifetimes the lifetime of the world; the "House of Osiris" into which the vindicated Egyptian dead were admitted is replaced by the Kingdom of God. And here too, admission to everlasting bliss depends upon the dead person's compliance with the norms of human fellowship; in the hereafter, those transgressions not susceptible of retribution on earth are accorded the ultimate sanction of eternal damnation...
It is the salvational efficacy of this process that gives it meaning in the first place and that marks the linguistic accompaniment as an interpretation. Of central moment is the idea of a dual overcoming: the overcoming of evil, personified by Apopis threatening the bark with standstill, and the overcoming of death. Both are manifestations of chaos, two aspects of the same process. The overcoming of evil is the active, transitive aspect, directed at the external world. In this dynamic, the sun god figures as the god of the world, whose word creates order, speaks law, ensures livelihood, and "drives out evil."...The overcoming of death is the passive or intransitive aspect of the nightly journey. This process takes the form of a life span that the sun god traverses, aging and dying in order to be reborn. The mystery of solar rebirth is in fact the central salvational element in Egyptian religion... The visual recognition of the circuit of the sun becomes an act of understanding by identification. Human beings recognize themselves in the cosmos. It is their death that is overcome...