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Re: Were the things according to scriptures really thought to have happened?

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:58 am
by Leucius Charinus
GakuseiDon wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 3:58 am I'm writing up my next review of Dr Carrier's OHJ, which is on his view of 1 Clement. I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts around the topic of people in early Christianity believing that the things they found in the Old Testament really happened.
One historian writes this: "a direct acquaintance with Jewish or Christian history normally came together with conversion to Judaism or to Christianity. People learnt a new history because they acquired a new religion. Conversion meant literally the discovery of a new history from Adam and Eve to contemporary events."

I'd be inclined to suggest that people were "taught" that scripture was "history". The early Christians therefore would probably have believed that the NT/LXX "package" was an historical "package".

Re: Were the things according to scriptures really thought to have happened?

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:26 am
by ABuddhist
MrMacSon wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:50 pm
ABuddhist wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:39 pm you undermine your argument when you cite an unreliable translation as a legitimate source
FFS! I haven't made an argument. I've just highlighted some things. Out of interest. And for posterity.

Things that are very unlikely to be influenced by 'translation'.

You have not pointed out how or why my use of the NIV affects what I've highlighted. So, unless you can provide an actual argument, your point is moot ie. it's actually utterly pointless. And an annoying waste of my time to have to deal with.



eta:
The only difference between the version Peter gave and the NIV for Revelation 13.8 is the order of the clauses or points:
MrMacSon wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 6:10 pm
re Revelation 13.8

And all who dwell on the earth will worship him [the [first] beast who came out of the sea], everyone whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain from the foundation[/creation] of the world.

The NIV has an alternative for the end:

everyone whose names have not been written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain [will worship the beast]


As it turns out, Revelation 13:8, which you've taken issue with (for some weird reason), is irrelevant to that story
I thank you for refraining from profanity.

As for your general claims, though, you are wrong in the following ways:

1. By citing Revelation 13:8 in another translation, you were making an implicit argument that the translation which was being discussed was incorrect. I would have no problem with this argument if you had not cited the NIV, which is an inaccurate translation.

2. The order of the clauses in Revelation 13:8 matters for the following reasons.

Peter's translation went as follows:

Revelation 13.8: “And all who dwell on the earth will worship him [the [first] beast who came out of the sea], everyone whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain from the foundation[/creation] of the world.”

This translation suggests that the lamb was slain from the world's foundation, which weakens the likelihood that a historical Jesus's death is what is being referred to.

In contrast, the translation of the NIV which you were citing read: “everyone whose names have not been written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain [will worship the beast]”

This translation suggests that people's names were written in the lamb's book of life from the creation of the world - allowing for predestination and eliminating the possibility that the lamb is not a historical Jesus.

Re: Were the things according to scriptures really thought to have happened?

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 5:39 am
by GakuseiDon
Leucius Charinus wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:58 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 3:58 am I'm writing up my next review of Dr Carrier's OHJ, which is on his view of 1 Clement. I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts around the topic of people in early Christianity believing that the things they found in the Old Testament really happened.
One historian writes this: "a direct acquaintance with Jewish or Christian history normally came together with conversion to Judaism or to Christianity. People learnt a new history because they acquired a new religion. Conversion meant literally the discovery of a new history from Adam and Eve to contemporary events."

I'd be inclined to suggest that people were "taught" that scripture was "history". The early Christians therefore would probably have believed that the NT/LXX "package" was an historical "package".
Not just history, but a prediction of future events that have come to pass. According to 1 Clement:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... berts.html

Every kind of honour and happiness was bestowed upon you, and then was fulfilled that which is written, "My beloved ate and drink, and was enlarged and became fat, and kicked." Hence flowed emulation and envy, strife and sedition, persecution and disorder, war and captivity.
...
The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done sol from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture a certain place, "I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith."...
...
Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.

There is also lots of advice that the author gives to the Corinthians that he supports by quoting the Scriptures.

Re: Were the things according to scriptures really thought to have happened?

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 5:53 am
by MrMacSon

..everyone whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb


..everyone whose names have not been written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb

Knock yourself out with all the English translations of most of the versions:

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%2013:8

AMPAll the inhabitants of the earth will fall down and worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain [as a willing sacrifice]
AMPCAnd all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world.
CEBAll who live on earth worshipped it, all whose names hadn’t been written—from the time the earth was made—in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slain.
CJBEveryone living on earth will worship it except those whose names are written in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb slaughtered before the world was founded.
ERVEveryone living on earth would worship the beast. These are all the people since the beginning of the world whose names are not written in the Lamb’s book of life. The Lamb is the one who was killed.
MSGThe Beast had a loud mouth, boastful and blasphemous. It could do anything it wanted for forty-two months. It yelled blasphemies against God, blasphemed his Name, blasphemed his Church, especially those already dwelling with God in Heaven. It was permitted to make war on God’s holy people and conquer them. It held absolute sway over all tribes and peoples, tongues and races. Everyone on earth whose name was not written from the world’s foundation in the slaughtered Lamb’s Book of Life will worship the Beast.
NRSVAand all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered.
OJBAnd all the ones dwelling on ha’aretz (the earth) will worship the Chayyah (Beast, Anti-Moshiach), all the ones whose name has not been written in the Sefer HaChayyim of the SEH (Lamb, SHEMOT 12:3; YESHAYAH 53:7, Moshiach) having been slain from lifnei hivvased tevel (before the foundation of the world).
TLVAll who dwell on the earth shall worship him—everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who was slain.
WYCAnd all men worshipped it, that dwell in earth, whose names be not written in the book of life of the lamb, that was slain from the beginning of the world.

Not that it matters.



What matters is this:
MrMacSon wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:50 pm
There's shapeshifting in the passages of Revelation I've highlighted.

Shortened here:


The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, [who] triumphed...is able to open the scroll/book and its seven seals ... 'It' becomes "a Lamb standing as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth." It becomes a 'He' who came and took the book out of the right hand of 'Him' who sat on the throne ...

It was slain "to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing"

After (i) a woman, clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head...(ii) gave birth to a son who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter” [Psalms 2:9 and 110:2] ... (iii) comes the salvation and the power and the kingdom of God and the authority of His Messiah ... by the blood of the Lamb and by The Word of...testimony ...

The Lamb [later appeared] standing on Mount Zion with 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads ... They follow the Lamb wherever he goes (they were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb) ...
.

$2 says that is a pre- gospel-Jesus story


As it turns out, Revelation 13:8, which you've taken issue with (for some weird reason), is irrelevant to that story


And Revelation 15


seven angels ... 3 sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb:

....“Great and marvelous are your deeds,
........Lord God Almighty.
.....Just and true are your ways,
........King of the nations/ages
.4 ..Who will not fear you, Lord,
........and bring glory to your name?
.....For you alone are holy.
.....All nations will come
........and worship before you,
.....for your righteous acts have been revealed.” [Psalm 111:2,3; Deut. 32:4; Jer. 10:7; Psalms 86:9; 98:2.]

5 ... in heaven the temple—that is, the tabernacle of the covenant law—was opened. 6 Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
.

And the culmination in (a) Revelation 21:


“a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End ...

22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
.

And (b) Revelation 22:


1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever ...

12Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David,* and the bright Morning Star.”

...... * see Rev. 5:5

17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.
.

Jesus is coming

Re: Were the things according to scriptures really thought to have happened?

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 6:04 am
by Peter Kirby
MrMacSon wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:50 pm eta:
The only difference between the version Peter gave and the NIV for Revelation 13.8 is the order of the clauses or points:
MrMacSon wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 6:10 pm
re Revelation 13.8

And all who dwell on the earth will worship him [the [first] beast who came out of the sea], everyone whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain from the foundation[/creation] of the world.

The NIV has an alternative for the end:

everyone whose names have not been written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain [will worship the beast]

Thank you, MrMacSon. I appreciate the comments. I'll admit that it wasn't obvious to me what you were trying to highlight.

Re: Were the things according to scriptures really thought to have happened?

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 6:10 am
by MrMacSon
Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 6:04 am Thank you, MrMacSon. I appreciate the comments. I'll admit that it wasn't obvious to me what you were trying to highlight.
Well, it wasn't the bit in orange (which became irrelevant).

And, frankly, it wasn't clear to me what I was doing until I used your excerpts of Rev 13:8 and Rev 5 to look for
  1. other references to the Lamb and the book; then
  2. other things that, among 'the shapeshifting', seemed to be (i) a consequence or (ii) related

Re: Were the things according to scriptures really thought to have happened?

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 9:59 am
by ABuddhist
I am glad, then, that my comments have allowed MrMacSon to better explain his ideas to Peter Kirby, who now better understands them. And MrMacSon, I thank you for providing a table of translations of the verse 13:8 - and I hope that you have no hard feelings towards me. I have no hard feelings towards you.

Re: Were the things according to scriptures really thought to have happened?

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:33 pm
by GakuseiDon
ABuddhist wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:26 amThis translation suggests that people's names were written in the lamb's book of life from the creation of the world - allowing for predestination and eliminating the possibility that the lamb is not a historical Jesus.
I'm kind of fascinated by this statement. In a world of adoptionism, separatism, docetism, gnosticism, where Jesus is described as a lion, a lamb, a rock -- why does that eliminate the possibility that the lamb is not a historical Jesus? What do you mean here by "historical Jesus"? Not saying I disagree, just curious of what you are thinking here.

Re: Were the things according to scriptures really thought to have happened?

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:20 pm
by Peter Kirby
GakuseiDon wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:33 pm I'm kind of fascinated by this statement.
I guess my reply wasn't fascinating enough to provoke a response. :notworthy: ;)

Re: Were the things according to scriptures really thought to have happened?

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:37 pm
by GakuseiDon
Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:20 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:33 pm I'm kind of fascinated by this statement.
I guess my reply wasn't fascinating enough to provoke a response. :notworthy: ;)
:D Sorry! I did read it, but I wasn't sure how your (very excellent!) comment on Revelation related to my point: that when Christians at times quote the Old Testament, they were using it to report recent events that they thought really happened. Since you seemed to be agreeing on that front I thought I'd leave the Revelation point alone. Apologies if I missed something there!