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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 12:44 pm
by dbz
"The Gospel of John & Euripides the Bacchae: Dionysus vs. Jesus - Dennis R. MacDonald (Part 2)". @time:00:05:40 YouTube. MythVision Podcast. Feb 23, 2021. "[T]oday when I talk about the Dionysian gospel it may come as a surprise that I'm not talking about the gospel of John I'm talking about the earliest stratum of the gospel of John."
  • Is the Dionysian gospel of MacDonald (a layer of canonical gJohn)—Chrestian?

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 2:22 pm
by mlinssen
dbz wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 12:29 pm
mlinssen wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 11:00 pm Chrestianity is what *Ev contained, a movement free from Judaics and Judaism just like Philip describes: Hebrews, not Judeans or Judaics is what they were
mlinssen wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:42 pm Plutarch certainly is a source of inspiration and text for the Churchians, but not Thomas or *Ev. Thomas just has the father and that father is nothing else but the original and untainted You - there is no religion in Thomas, only anti-religion

John takes that father into a little more than that...
  • Is John an example of the "Churchians" production of materiel reliant on Thomas or *Ev.?
The final product that we have, yes - but 80% of it is pure John is my wild and utterly unverified guess. I hold John to be the first gospel, the first to take Thomas any further, and into a narrative - but I have an issue there, as John uses next to nothing verbatim material from Thomas. Either he was first and *Ev built onto him or vice versa, yet the latter would hold that John dropped all 57 Thomasine logia that are in *Ev (give or take a handful that get entirely contextualised and as such are fairly weak parallels) - which would in essence make for one single consistent decision, move and redaction, yet an awful lot of excising and recomposing

So no, John is the very first gospel - of all MSS found till 800 CE John holds the majority, and the earlier the MSS the more that he dominates the finds. Tertullian names him more often than Matthew and Mark together, and Irenaeus starts his infamous four pillar story with John: John, Luke, Matthew, Mark
mlinssen wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:39 am
dbz wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:20 am Are Chrestians oriented in a monistic direction...
There are no signs of that, the gospel of Philip contains what can be relied on...
  • Is John oriented in a monistic direction?
mlinssen wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 11:00 pm Philip certainly comes after Mark with regards to the resurrection, yet after LukeMatthew with regards to the virgin birth - although there are other texts that relate both events

Chrestianity is what *Ev contained, a movement free from Judaics and Judaism just like Philip describes: Hebrews, not Judeans or Judaics is what they were
Some confusion there perhaps: Philip attests to Christianity so he wrote his text when that started to come into being - yet he narrates a vast part of what comes before that: the full Monty baptism after which they could call themselves Chrestians.
And the Chrism comes on top of that ritual, allowing them to name themselves Christians - Philip writes on the brink of Chrestianity and Christianity yet hands us the entire history of Chrestianity

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 3:52 pm
by dbz
mlinssen wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 2:22 pm [W]hat comes before [the first narrative gospel—John—] that [is]: the full Monty baptism after which they could call themselves Chrestians.
And the Chrism comes on top of that ritual, allowing them to name themselves Christians - Philip writes on the brink of Chrestianity and Christianity yet hands us the entire history of Chrestianity
I propose the following terminology:
  • inferior gnosis Chrestian == water "baptism" ritual == colloquially labelled Chrestian
  • superior gnosis Chrestian == scented-oil anointing "chrism/myróchristos" ritual [n.b. predicated on prior baptism ritual] == colloquially labelled Christian

Musgrave gives μυρόχριστος (myróchristos) in the sense of "anointed" ca. 450BCE

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 8:32 pm
by dbz
mlinssen wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 8:48 am
We all are split, dualised, separated. Observe Logion 74: we all struggle with separation but none of us considers himself sick, diseased. Grondin has a minor paper as usual on Gathercole's there:

https://www.academia.edu/35895901
[...]
He who is in the presence of your face is the Ego; he who is hiding is the father
If sickness is separation, healing thus becomes a lesson in understanding; and the more you practice it the better teacher and learner you become.

If you have denied truth, what better witnesses to its reality could you have than those who have been healed by it? But be sure to count yourself among them, for in your willingness to join them is your healing accomplished.

Every miracle that you accomplish speaks to you of the Father. Every healing thought that you accept, either from your brother or in your own mind, teaches you of your Sonship. In every hurtful thought you hold, wherever you perceive it, lies the denial of the Father and of your Sonship.

And denial is as total as love. You cannot deny part of yourself, because the rest will seem to be separate and therefore without meaning. And being without meaning to you, you will not understand it. To deny meaning is to fail to understand. You can heal only yourself, for only you need healing. You need it because you do not understand yourself, and therefore know not what you do. Having forgotten, you do not know what you really want.

Healing is a sign that you want to make whole. And this willingness opens your ears to the Father, Whose message is wholeness. He will enable you to go far beyond the healing you would undertake, for beside your small willingness to make whole. He will make you whole. What can the Son not accomplish with the Father in Him?

And yet the invitation must come from you, for you have surely learned that whom you invite as your guest will abide with you. The Father cannot speak to an unwelcoming host, because He will not be heard. The eternal Father remains, but His Voice grows faint in alien company. He needs your protection, only because your care is a sign that you want Him.

Think like Him ever so slightly, and the little spark becomes a blazing light that fills your mind so that He becomes your only Guest. Whenever you ask the ego to enter, you lessen His welcome. He will remain, but you have allied yourself against Him. Whatever journey you choose to take, He will go with you, waiting. You can safely trust His patience, for He will never leave.

Yet you need far more than patience. You will never rest until you know your function and fulfill it, for only in this can you and the Father be wholly joined.
Is it Thomasine? Riffing on "Chapter 11: GOD OR THE EGO". miraclecenter.org.

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 11:28 pm
by mlinssen
dbz wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 8:32 pm
mlinssen wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 8:48 am
We all are split, dualised, separated. Observe Logion 74: we all struggle with separation but none of us considers himself sick, diseased. Grondin has a minor paper as usual on Gathercole's there:

https://www.academia.edu/35895901
[...]
He who is in the presence of your face is the Ego; he who is hiding is the father
If sickness is separation, healing thus becomes a lesson in understanding; and the more you practice it the better teacher and learner you become.

If you have denied truth, what better witnesses to its reality could you have than those who have been healed by it? But be sure to count yourself among them, for in your willingness to join them is your healing accomplished.

Every miracle that you accomplish speaks to you of the Father. Every healing thought that you accept, either from your brother or in your own mind, teaches you of your Sonship. In every hurtful thought you hold, wherever you perceive it, lies the denial of the Father and of your Sonship.

And denial is as total as love. You cannot deny part of yourself, because the rest will seem to be separate and therefore without meaning. And being without meaning to you, you will not understand it. To deny meaning is to fail to understand. You can heal only yourself, for only you need healing. You need it because you do not understand yourself, and therefore know not what you do. Having forgotten, you do not know what you really want.

Healing is a sign that you want to make whole. And this willingness opens your ears to the Father, Whose message is wholeness. He will enable you to go far beyond the healing you would undertake, for beside your small willingness to make whole. He will make you whole. What can the Son not accomplish with the Father in Him?

And yet the invitation must come from you, for you have surely learned that whom you invite as your guest will abide with you. The Father cannot speak to an unwelcoming host, because He will not be heard. The eternal Father remains, but His Voice grows faint in alien company. He needs your protection, only because your care is a sign that you want Him.

Think like Him ever so slightly, and the little spark becomes a blazing light that fills your mind so that He becomes your only Guest. Whenever you ask the ego to enter, you lessen His welcome. He will remain, but you have allied yourself against Him. Whatever journey you choose to take, He will go with you, waiting. You can safely trust His patience, for He will never leave.

Yet you need far more than patience. You will never rest until you know your function and fulfill it, for only in this can you and the Father be wholly joined.
Is it Thomasine? Riffing on "Chapter 11: GOD OR THE EGO". miraclecenter.org.
ACIM. The separation they talk about is addressed in a separate chapter, https://www.miraclecenter.org/a-course- ... /T-2.I.php

Even though that is titled "The Origins of Separation" it doesn't say anything about precisely that.
Christianity disguised as spirituality, dropping the right words left and right - one of many occasions where an alleged atheist suddenly produces a very religious and Christian pamflet

What is typically Thomasine? That all answers to everything lie only on the inside: that is where the kingdom is. It's earthly, right here and now

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Posted: Sun May 21, 2023 3:10 am
by GakuseiDon
Looks like the Gospel of Philip has the world created by a Demiurge after all!

The world came about through a mistake. For he who created it wanted to create it imperishable and immortal. He fell short of attaining his desire. For the world never was imperishable, nor, for that matter, was he who made the world.

Add to this the use of terms like "Aeon" and "Pleroma" and there's no doubt that the text was written by a gnostic. Looking through it, I find that it contains passages that disparage apparent orthodox Christian beliefs:

Some said, "Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit." They are in error. They do not know what they are saying. When did a woman ever conceive by a woman? Mary is the virgin whom no power defiled. She is a great anathema to the Hebrews, who are the apostles and the apostolic men. This virgin whom no power defiled [...] the powers defile themselves. And the Lord would not have said "My Father who is in Heaven" (Mt 16:17), unless he had had another father, but he would have said simply "My father".

"Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit" is an orthodox position which is found in the Gospels. So the author is rejecting some of the Gospels at the least.

Some are afraid lest they rise naked. Because of this they wish to rise in the flesh, and they do not know that it is those who wear the flesh who are naked. It is those who [...] to unclothe themselves who are not naked. "Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Co 15:50).

"Rising in the flesh" is the view of Second Century orthodox Christians.

Those who say they will die first and then rise are in error. If they do not first receive the resurrection while they live, when they die they will receive nothing. So also when speaking about baptism they say, "Baptism is a great thing," because if people receive it they will live.

"Die first and then rise" is also a Second Century orthodox Christian position. Gnostics believe that they must receive the resurrection while they are alive.

The saints are served by evil powers, for they are blinded by the Holy Spirit into thinking that they are serving an (ordinary) man whenever they do so for the saints. Because of this, a disciple asked the Lord one day for something of this world. He said to him, "Ask your mother, and she will give you of the things which are another's."...
...
He who has knowledge of the truth is a free man, but the free man does not sin, for "He who sins is the slave of sin" (Jn 8:34). Truth is the mother, knowledge the father. Those who think that sinning does not apply to them are called "free" by the world. Knowledge of the truth merely makes such people arrogant, which is what the words, "it makes them free" mean. It even gives them a sense of superiority over the whole world.

Again, this seems to be an attack on the orthodox Christian position.

The author seems to imply that the apostles had some kind of secret knowledge:

The apostles said to the disciples, "May our entire offering obtain salt." They called Sophia "salt". Without it, no offering is acceptable.

It seems clearer to me now that the "Chrestians" are the orthodox Christians. Perhaps this is linked to Justin Martyr's and Tertullian's comments after all. They are in no doubt that "Christian" comes from "Christ", but that Christians were also being called "Chrestians".

I speculate that the gnostics used the term as a minor smear against orthodoxy. The orthodox had had the baptism so they will be redeemed, but they won't be "Christ"-ians until the chrism has anointed them. Only the gnostics become Christs so were worthy of the title "Christian"!

If I am right, then we might find in other gnostic writings the term "Chrestian" being used to refer to orthodox Christians.

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Posted: Sun May 21, 2023 2:29 pm
by GakuseiDon
Some interesting parallels between the Gospel of Philip and the Ascension of Isaiah:

The GoP has Mary as "undefiled", Anyone claiming that "Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit" is wrong.

In AoI, the baby Jesus just appears and Mary is astonished. Her womb was found as formerly before she had conceived There is no Holy Spirit involved.

In GoP: "You saw Christ, you became Christ."

In AoI: "In Jerusalem indeed I was Him being crucified on a tree:"

Interesting! Though probably irrelevant. :scratch:

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Posted: Sun May 21, 2023 5:37 pm
by Peter Kirby
GakuseiDon wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 2:29 pm Some interesting parallels between the Gospel of Philip and the Ascension of Isaiah:

The GoP has Mary as "undefiled", Anyone claiming that "Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit" is wrong.

In AoI, the baby Jesus just appears and Mary is astonished. Her womb was found as formerly before she had conceived There is no Holy Spirit involved.

In GoP: "You saw Christ, you became Christ."

In AoI: "In Jerusalem indeed I was Him being crucified on a tree:"

Interesting! Though probably irrelevant. :scratch:
It's times like these that I wish I had something like a database to make connections among texts and their commonalities and differences. There are so many interesting connections between different non-canonical texts, but they don't really stick in my memory often enough.

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 4:02 am
by davidmartin
I speculate that the gnostics used the term as a minor smear against orthodoxy. The orthodox had had the baptism so they will be redeemed, but they won't be "Christ"-ians until the chrism has anointed them. Only the gnostics become Christs so were worthy of the title "Christian"!
The same thing occurs today. Certain evangelical Christians mocking others who are not born again, speaking in tongues - only they are true Christians in their view (via the agency of the holy spirit). Other regular Christians are unsaved. Because they "know how it works" by studying the apostle Paul.. I optimistically call these people optimists.

This is roughly where the GoP is coming from?

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 4:18 am
by GakuseiDon
davidmartin wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 4:02 amThe same thing occurs today. Certain evangelical Christians mocking others who are not born again, speaking in tongues - only they are true Christians in their view (via the agency of the holy spirit). Other regular Christians are unsaved. Because they "know how it works" by studying the apostle Paul.. I optimistically call these people optimists.

This is roughly where the GoP is coming from?
I think the author of GoP is a little more sympathetic to the orthodox than those evangelicals, if I am indeed correct that the author is using "Chrestian" to refer to orthodox Christians. Chrestians only have the baptism, but it seems that baptism is enough to be redeemed. It just isn't enough to be called "Christian". That requires being anointed with chrism, the oil of anointing that (metaphorically) comes from the wood used in the crucifixion of Christ. As GoP says (from memory) "chrism is superior to baptism" and "we are called 'Christians' on account of the anointing of chrism, not because of the baptism".

Since GoP refers to the Tree of Knowledge, Sophia, Pleroma, Aeon, and other gnostic terms, then I guess that for the author being anointed with chrism is some kind of suffering that brings knowledge. Orthodox Christians don't have that particular knowledge.