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Re: Are there simonian writings before the Earliest Gospel?

Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 6:02 am
by dbz
Giuseppe wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 4:14 am In short: even if Marcion didn't write the Earliest Gospel, even if the Simonians didn't write the Earliest Gospel...
  • Are the Monad+Dyad of Xenocrates found the earliest primitive layer of gJohn i.e. "So the gospel begins by saying there is a Mother who was with God and is God."?
  • Is the Dyad of said gospel, operating through a human vessel who is a prophet/proclaimer/preacher?
  • Are Marcion and the Simonians aware of the thought found in Plutarch’s On Isis and Osiris that local supreme gods equate to the universal first and second gods of Middle Platonism?
  • Are Marcion and the Simonians aware of the earliest primitive layer of gJohn?

Re: Are there simonian writings before the Earliest Gospel?

Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 8:04 am
by Giuseppe
Giuseppe wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 4:14 am Curiously, Robert M. Price is arrived very close to the truth when he wrote that:

If Marcion was a Simonian, why does he speak about Jesus as much as he does? Why does he not talk about the salvation wrought by Simon?

(Amazing Colossal Apostle, p. 224, my bold)

Think about the implications of that:
  • Marcion was a Simonian;
  • Marcion was the first who collected the epistles;
  • Bruno Bauer has proved, pace Bob Price, that the epistles betray knowledge of the Earliest Gospel;
  • Marcion knew the Earliest Gospel;
  • the Simonians would have willingly connected their Simon/"Jesus" with Pilate, since the latter had dealt cruelly with the Samaritans;
  • Therefore: Marcion, or some Samaritan preceding him, would have introduced probably Pilate in the Passion story.
In short: even if Marcion didn't write the Earliest Gospel, even if the Simonians didn't write the Earliest Gospel, what is very probable is that Marcion and/or the Simonians mentioned the first time Pilate in connection with Jesus.

ADDENDA: This explains why the insistence on the 15° year of Tiberius was an obsession entirely marcionite.

Further evidence that the idea itself of a "crucifixion of Jesus" was connected with Samaria is found in the Jewish post-Bar-Kokhba invention of a samaritan Messiah Son of Joseph, as part and parcel of the anti-Christian polemic:

The notion of the Messias Ben Joseph or Ben Ephraim frequently mentioned by the Jewish writers, “makes so much for the Samaritans”, observed Lightfoot, “that one might believe it was first hatched among themselves; only that the story tells us that Messiah was at length slain; which the Samaritans would hardly ever have invented concerning Him. And the Jews perhaps might be the authors of it; that so they might the better evade those passages that speak of the death of the true Messiah”. If this notion is of post-Christian date, when the belief in a crucified Messias was in currency, it seems to imply the recognition that He who had suffered was the Samaritan Messias, or of the Ten Tribes. To suppose that the notion was invented to explain a text, Zech. 12. 10, seems to be insufficient reasoning. The remarkable thing is that a son of Joseph, whose bones were admitted by the Talmudic writers to be buried in Sychem,—a descendant of Ephraim, the Samaritan tribe,—should be admitted a Messias at all. We cannot but suppose that old Samaritan beliefs about the Messias were in some way blended with that current of Gnostic teaching of which the fountainhead was Simon, the Great One (perhaps originally only the Rabbi) of that land. Cerinthus, Cerdo, and Carpocrates taught that Jesus was son of Joseph and Mary.

(Edwin Johnson, Antiqua Mater, p. 259, my bold)

So the more economical scenario is one where the Simonians, during the formation of the Gospel tradition (or at least when the early anti-demiurgists appeared in Samaria), introduced in it the connection of Jesus with the Samaria in the simplest possible way: by connecting Jesus with the notorious slaughterer of Samaritans: Pilate.

Re: Are there simonian writings before the Earliest Gospel?

Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 8:33 am
by Giuseppe
Edwin Johnson was a real genius. For two reasons.
  • He realized that the anti-demiurgists also insisted on Pilate, even before the same Catholics:

    We still recur to the question, Who were the first Christiani ? As far as we can gather from the evidence before us, it was the Gnostics, who from about the beginning to the middle of the second century bore and propagated the Christian name. It was they who were the real depositaries of the evangelical tradition; to them that we owe the statement concerning the fifteenth year of Tiberius and the descent of Jesus at Capernaum. Concerning their arch-father, Simon of Samaria, we have the statement in Justin and in Irenseus that he practised magical arts in the reign of Claudius, a date which is valuable amidst the scantiness of such particulars.

    (Antiqua Mater, p. 283, my bold)
  • He realized the process by which a feature of the mere priest of the cult (= Simon Magus being a Samaritan under Claudius, with Dositheus being his precursor under Tiberius) was misinterpreted as a feature of the same historicized/euhemerized god ( = crucifixion under Pilate):

    Of these Samaritans as persons we know no more than their names and the places of their activity. The rest of the tale is an account of their doctrine of Redemption and of their religious rites. Examples in the old religious myths of Hellas remind us how common it was to transfer ideas connected with god or goddess to the representative priest or priestess, upon whom the supernatural character is reflected. There is no proof nor probability that these men represented themselves as Saviours: they spoke of a Saviour in the revelation of their mystery—namely, of Jesus, on whom Christ had at baptism descended. These men had seized upon the spirit and inner meaning of the Hellenic mysteries and others akin to them.

    (Antiqua Mater, p. 284, my bold)

Re: Are there simonian writings before the Earliest Gospel?

Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 1:52 am
by davidmartin
Irish1975 wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 5:39 pm If Simon is only interesting as a footnote in the Quixotic world of Jesus studies, as a way to account for a minor episode in Mark, then have at it. I don’t see any substance in these tales except malice and comic relief.

Why is Simon relevant to Jews or Christians? Why did they make such a big deal of him? Maybe the Simonians had no interest in YHWH or Jesus stories, and were simply a competitor cult.

The Refutator, bless his heart, is the only scold who bothers to dig up interesting material.

Before someone cites a bunch of LXX commentary from Book 6, attributed to Simon/Simonians, yes I am aware of it. I think that stuff is tacked on. It’s certainly less interesting than the Simonian philosophy.
Irish, the limited Simonian info there is supports the significance of Magdalene's role in the mythos which has numerous other examples, this is just one more
Also the use of the Hebrew scriptures by them shows they weren't simple anti-demiurge dualists at all which is a key point to feed into the next conclusion - the widespread gnostic rejection of Simonianism (most clearly seen in the Coptic Apocalypse of Peter and the 2nd Teaching of the Great Seth), which undermines the dubious patristic claim of Simon being the first gnostic (the claim is probably horse manure)
As far as I know, no-one has noticed how anti-Simonian most gnostic writings are... and the exceptions lack extreme dualism (The Exegesis of the Soul is the classic example, the Thunder would be another and the base layer of the Trimorphic Protennoia)
I suspect one reason the gnostics had problems with the Simonians is their close association with orthodox Christianity, that they blamed them for it and turned the myth of Helena into the fall of Sophia.
I've gone through the Simonian philosophy and it's pretty obvious Simon is not claiming to be a God (whether the later Simonians claimed this I don't know)