Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

For me, the Argument from the Two Incipits in Marcion and Mark marks a point in support of the Marcionite priority.

Under the Markan priority, basically two were (and are and will be) the kinds of approach to the incipit:

• the total fabrication based on Josephus and midrash, without no embarrassment at all, the scenario followed for example here by Sinouhe and Paul the Uncertain;

• the presence of an ill-disguised rivarly with the independent sect of John the Baptist, the scenario followed for example by Robert M. Price.

• (A third scenario, the historical nucleus of a baptism of Jesus by John, is left totally to Christian apologists and their friends among atheists)

The Marcionite priority is able to explain in the same moment:

• why the incipit of Mark is entirely fabricated

• why, despite of all that fabrication in Mark, traces of an ill-disguised rivarly between Jesus and John emerge still in surface (I point out: in Mark).

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 7:03 am For me, the Argument from the Two Incipits in Marcion and Mark marks a point in support of the Marcionite priority.

Under the Markan priority, basically two were (and are and will be) the kinds of approach to the incipit:

• the total fabrication based on Josephus and midrash, without no embarrassment at all, the scenario followed for example here by Sinouhe and Paul the Uncertain;

• the presence of an ill-disguised rivarly with the independent sect of John the Baptist, the scenario followed for example by Robert M. Price.

• (A third scenario, the historical nucleus of a baptism of Jesus by John, is left totally to Christian apologists and their friends among atheists)

The Marcionite priority is able to explain in the same moment:

• why the incipit of Mark is entirely fabricated

• why, despite of all that fabrication in Mark, traces of an ill-disguised rivarly between Jesus and John emerge still in surface (I point out: in Mark).

Those are two different things: a rivalry between the two men, and a rivalry among survivors of John. In Mark, there is little interaction between John and Jesus. John is portrayed as expecting a hero-figure, but is not portrayed as associating Jesus with that figure. Mark is content to explain why Jesus thinks John was talking about him. John may disagree, but he is hardly in a position to do anything about it if he does.

Paul the Uncertain wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:23 am Those are two different things: a rivalry between the two men, and a rivalry among survivors of John.

obviously I mean, in both Mark and Marcion, a rivalry between the respective cults (I am a Jesus mythicist and a John the Baptist agnostic).

I am right in placing you among the proponents of the first approach to the incipit of Mark:

• the total fabrication based on Josephus and midrash, without no embarrassment at all, the scenario followed for example here by Sinouhe and Paul the Uncertain;

But I think that you are well aware of the existence of the second approach to Mark's incipit, i.e. Bob Price (a Markan prioritist) argued for a rivalry between the Jesus cult and the John sect, on the ground of Mark and other gospels. His argument was more or less that Mark conceded that Jesus was submitted to John via the baptism but only to persuade the John's sectarians to follow Jesus in the place of John.

The advantage of the Marcionite priority is that you explain both the cases: pure fabrication + traces of rivalry in Mark.